From nicholasdrozd at gmail.com  Sat Feb  1 16:35:49 2020
From: nicholasdrozd at gmail.com (Nicholas Drozd)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 10:35:49 -0600
Subject: Next meeting, Feb 6th
In-Reply-To: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
References: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CABAiW0pFN1B=fEBpdwV25AwkFSfEQfjvVjE+KFAko7BAv2yLFg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes yes yes

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:49 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>
> 6:00, Thursday, Feb 6th
> 2854 Columbus Ave S.
>
> Please reply if you can make it (so we can estimate how much food to buy).

From patrick at psbarrett.com  Tue Feb  4 00:34:30 2020
From: patrick at psbarrett.com (Patrick Barrett)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 18:34:30 -0600
Subject: Next meeting, Feb 6th
In-Reply-To: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
References: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <642b0038-1faf-471e-8afb-20ca37ed4b1e@www.fastmail.com>

I'll be there. (First time!) But don't count me for food, I have
impossible to cater to dietary requirements at the moment.

From pstelzig at gmx.com  Wed Feb  5 03:45:08 2020
From: pstelzig at gmx.com (pstelzig)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 21:45:08 -0600
Subject: Next meeting, Feb 6th
In-Reply-To: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
References: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <9280c41a-3b18-5a32-798d-08111e7a8b15@gmx.com>

I think I will be able to make it.

On 30/01/2020 23:49, Joe Nelson wrote:
> 6:00, Thursday, Feb 6th
> 2854 Columbus Ave S.
>
> Please reply if you can make it (so we can estimate how much food to buy).
>
> A note for the new people on the list -- bring a laptop and some cash to
> chip in for food. We don't have presentations at these events, it's more
> about meeting people and working on projects. There are a wide variety
> of interests, always something new to learn.
>

From bavier at posteo.net  Thu Feb  6 01:08:03 2020
From: bavier at posteo.net (Eric Bavier)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2020 19:08:03 -0600
Subject: Next meeting, Feb 6th
In-Reply-To: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
References: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <F3427941-5671-4C76-94D4-27057CF40E3B@posteo.net>

On January 30, 2020 11:49:01 PM CST, Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>6:00, Thursday, Feb 6th
>2854 Columbus Ave S.
>
>Please reply if you can make it (so we can estimate how much food to
>buy).
>
>A note for the new people on the list -- bring a laptop and some cash
>to
>chip in for food. We don't have presentations at these events, it's
>more
>about meeting people and working on projects. There are a wide variety
>of interests, always something new to learn.

I'm planning to come.

From dave at 19a6.net  Thu Feb  6 13:45:07 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:45:07 -0600
Subject: Next meeting, Feb 6th
In-Reply-To: <F3427941-5671-4C76-94D4-27057CF40E3B@posteo.net>
References: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
 <F3427941-5671-4C76-94D4-27057CF40E3B@posteo.net>
Message-ID: <20200206134507.GA32664@19a6.tech>

There are 13 RSVPs between this list and the Linux Desktop meetup group.

From duby.savannah at cottageindustries.build  Thu Feb  6 23:02:50 2020
From: duby.savannah at cottageindustries.build (Savannah Duby)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 17:02:50 -0600
Subject: Next meeting, Feb 6th
In-Reply-To: <20200206134507.GA32664@19a6.tech>
References: <20200131054901.s23dkwinysjhtiq7@begriffs.com>
 <F3427941-5671-4C76-94D4-27057CF40E3B@posteo.net>
 <20200206134507.GA32664@19a6.tech>
Message-ID: <CAC_iP1wLaPEf_48F0wYGNnysG1KYZDpPACwGJPJhzNJpLQ6uiA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Dave!


On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:45 AM Dave Bucklin <dave at 19a6.net> wrote:
>
> There are 13 RSVPs between this list and the Linux Desktop meetup group.



-- 

Savannah Duby, Ronin Consulting
C: 913-314-3053

From joe at begriffs.com  Mon Feb 10 01:01:11 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:01:11 -0600
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
Message-ID: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>

Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

From denisovenator at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 01:26:08 2020
From: denisovenator at gmail.com (Victor Denisov)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 17:26:08 -0800
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
In-Reply-To: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtw9WiuvUf0i2TrJQNjGaTJONhh_cuhpsOYU3hipYPjJup7UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Black and red wires are ground and voltage.
The other two are data. If you cut them
you will only be able to charge your device.

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 5:01 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
> the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
> and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
> guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 01:35:00 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:35:00 -0600
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
In-Reply-To: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQySsgoHeB91aRyrCVA9K3cDGavY233tBSfduMx3DyZLyA@mail.gmail.com>

Such a thing exists, its called a USB condom. You can find them online
or create your own.

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 7:01 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
> the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
> and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
> guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

From joe at begriffs.com  Mon Feb 10 01:56:29 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:56:29 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
Message-ID: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>

Tristan is not able to host any more meetups at his warehouse. However
he's looking for a new building to set up as a makerspace. If you have
any leads for places, please let him know.

In the meantime where do people want to hold our monthly meeting? Here
are some ideas:

* Using the classroom at https://tcmaker.org during their Weds
  open houses where the doors are unlocked to the public. Most members
  there are into physical construction or the telecom industry.
* Crash https://tchacknight.com on the first Weds of each month. It's a
  nice space. The attendees are mostly consultants from Livefront who
  are into mobile app development. They enforce their 6-8 hours so it
  shuts down pretty early.
* Reserve a conference room in the Minneapolis central library. We can do
  that on any night we want, so could continue with Thursdays. They have
  whiteboards and the wifi is good. No food allowed though, and it's a
  little sterile.
* Dave could hook us up with a common room in a building in downtown
  Minneapolis east. It's a pretty big room with kitchen equipment and
  booths.
* If we list our group on meetup.com, we can get a free conference room
  in Capella Tower. I'm not a big fan of meetup.com though because I
  think it attracts randos, and I like that we run our own
  infrastructure.
* Other ideas?

From louis at goessling.com  Mon Feb 10 02:07:33 2020
From: louis at goessling.com (Louis)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:07:33 -0600
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
In-Reply-To: <CAGgjgQySsgoHeB91aRyrCVA9K3cDGavY233tBSfduMx3DyZLyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
 <CAGgjgQySsgoHeB91aRyrCVA9K3cDGavY233tBSfduMx3DyZLyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL-xF7XqEDUxkbiLLBO0oheWxfxrE2kBSM-xYZP_M1MvVpOR8g@mail.gmail.com>

Such cables can also be found included in the packaging of various
cheapshit accessories that charge over micro USB. They are a huge pain
in the ass if they end up in your cable drawer and then you can't
figure out why your phone won't talk to your computer...

Louis Goessling

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 7:35 PM Forest Johnson
<forest.n.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Such a thing exists, its called a USB condom. You can find them online
> or create your own.
>
> On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 7:01 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
> > the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
> > and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
> > guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

From drewbenson at netjack.com  Mon Feb 10 02:12:47 2020
From: drewbenson at netjack.com (Andrew Benson)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:12:47 -0700
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
In-Reply-To: <CAL-xF7XqEDUxkbiLLBO0oheWxfxrE2kBSM-xYZP_M1MvVpOR8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL-xF7XqEDUxkbiLLBO0oheWxfxrE2kBSM-xYZP_M1MvVpOR8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6B4490BF-9423-4566-9F23-FB15BDD3874B@netjack.com>

Just always bring your own power brick.  Don?t plug your USB into random ports.  Safety first!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 7:08 PM, Louis <louis at goessling.com> wrote:
> 

?Such cables can also be found included in the packaging of various
cheapshit accessories that charge over micro USB. They are a huge pain
in the ass if they end up in your cable drawer and then you can't
figure out why your phone won't talk to your computer...

Louis Goessling

> On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 7:35 PM Forest Johnson
> <forest.n.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Such a thing exists, its called a USB condom. You can find them online
> or create your own.
> 
>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 7:01 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
>> the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
>> and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
>> guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

From salo at saloits.com  Mon Feb 10 02:40:58 2020
From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:40:58 -0600
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
In-Reply-To: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210010111.2777og5xwr2lyk5e@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <ea95c141-0fb0-cd1d-3a23-94d9b2a06989@saloits.com>

On 2/9/2020 7:01 PM, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
> the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
> and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
> guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

I carry a "PortaPow 3rd Gen USB Data Blocker".  It's about the size of a
USB plug.  Plus, it's labeled.  Between the size and the labeling, it's
[all but] impossible to mix it up with a regular USB cable (well, it
doesn't even have a cable).

-tjs


From drewbenson at netjack.com  Mon Feb 10 06:35:47 2020
From: drewbenson at netjack.com (Andrew Benson)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 00:35:47 -0600
Subject: Secure USB charging cable
In-Reply-To: <ea95c141-0fb0-cd1d-3a23-94d9b2a06989@saloits.com>
References: <ea95c141-0fb0-cd1d-3a23-94d9b2a06989@saloits.com>
Message-ID: <11B656D7-41DC-415D-AEBF-75A6F3253B31@netjack.com>

Seems like a good thing to carry.@

> 
> On Feb 9, 2020, at 8:41 PM, Timothy J. Salo <salo at saloits.com> wrote:
> 

?On 2/9/2020 7:01 PM, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Does anyone on the list know how USB cables are wired? I was thinking
> the other day it would be cool to have a cable that carries only power
> and not data, so I could charge my phone off a computer and be
> guaranteed that the two aren't talking to each other.

I carry a "PortaPow 3rd Gen USB Data Blocker".  It's about the size of a
USB plug.  Plus, it's labeled.  Between the size and the labeling, it's
[all but] impossible to mix it up with a regular USB cable (well, it
doesn't even have a cable).

-tjs


From dave at 19a6.net  Tue Feb 11 15:30:31 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:30:31 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CC94F7C0-3FCF-460F-B6CB-C3DB40E0FD6C@19a6.net>



On February 9, 2020 7:56:29 PM CST, Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>* Other ideas?

If you are aware of a restaurant or cafe that is large enough and usually empty at a given time of day, it might be a candidate. There are many good restaurants in Minneapolis that are always full. One could infer that there are also some crappy restaurants that are always empty, especially on off-hours.

From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Tue Feb 11 16:28:17 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:28:17 +0000
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <8815997f-8345-4da9-8dd7-270ea4209f80@protonmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Joe,

The way I found this group is through meetup. (and was a bit of a rabbit 
hole when I found it) We shouldn't run our entire infrastructure off of 
it, but we should at the very least advertise on there and point people 
in the right direction.

A free space is better than no space at all in regards to Capella.

I don't like using a space that is meant for something else in the case 
of the tcmaker and tchacknight spaces (I wouldn't be able to make it to 
tchacknight anyway, closes too early). Doesn't feel like it's in the 
spirit of what the spaces are used for especially with the size of the 
group already. I'm not opposed having one of us reach out to TCMaker and 
see if we could get something on their calendar if we feel that is a 
good option.

On 2/9/20 7:56 PM, Joe Nelson wrote:

> * If we list our group on meetup.com, we can get a free conference room
>    in Capella Tower. I'm not a big fan of meetup.com though because I
>    think it attracts randos, and I like that we run our own
>    infrastructure.
> * Using the classroom athttps://tcmaker.org  during their Weds
>    open houses where the doors are unlocked to the public. Most members
>    there are into physical construction or the telecom industry.
> * Crashhttps://tchacknight.com  on the first Weds of each month. It's a
>    nice space. The attendees are mostly consultants from Livefront who
>    are into mobile app development. They enforce their 6-8 hours so it
>    shuts down pretty early.

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From ianbicking at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 23:30:18 2020
From: ianbicking at gmail.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:30:18 -0600
Subject: Rust / optimizing away loops
Message-ID: <CAHtfchooSnp14L1vJ4ahqRJTR8-c_1261R6sWvLeY=q+ZaG3zQ@mail.gmail.com>

I noticed this article about Rust optimizations of sum(1..k), which
was the same thing people were doing with Idris:
https://idursun.com/posts/rust_zero_cost_abstractions_in_action/

It's not proof-based, but FWIW it appears Rust knows how to optimize
this particular operation (which seems weird... how common is summing
sequences?) and then it does bits of partial evaluation as well.


-- 
Ian Bicking  |  http://ianbicking.org

From remexre at protonmail.com  Wed Feb 12 00:54:56 2020
From: remexre at protonmail.com (remexre)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:54:56 +0000
Subject: Rust / optimizing away loops
In-Reply-To: <CAHtfchooSnp14L1vJ4ahqRJTR8-c_1261R6sWvLeY=q+ZaG3zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHtfchooSnp14L1vJ4ahqRJTR8-c_1261R6sWvLeY=q+ZaG3zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9qvRMc9ULoHsrnMfahZ3oG3_1uCkgBw6ysTx5Jjjuad7iNbZ9DpJcYopshEu-hL3giA1N_oVq7syXTja9N3t7HWFxEe7esRBHgpxbBCbP14=@protonmail.com>

Looks like this is actually an LLVM pass; the generated code from

rustc foo.rs --emit=llvm-ir -O -C no-prepopulate-passes -C codegen-units=1

where foo.rs is:



pub fn sum(n: i32) -> i32 {
   (1..n).sum()
}

// To prevent constant-folding away the argument.
extern { fn foo() -> i32; }

pub fn main() {
    let n = unsafe { foo() };
    println!("{}", sum(n));
}




results in a call to the stdlib sum function; running

opt foo.ll -O3 -s -o foo-opt.ll

results in the same operations seen in the article. From bisecting the LLVM passes enabled on rustc, it appears the indvars pass [1] handles this, though I can't read the source [2] well enough to figure out its limits. From playing around in Godbolt, it looks like it can do things of the form

(1..n).map(|x| POLYNOMIAL_OF_X).sum()

but not

(1..n).map(|x| (1..x).sum::<i32>()).sum()

Thanks,
Nathan

[1]: https://llvm.org/docs/Passes.html#indvars-canonicalize-induction-variables
[2]: https://llvm.org/doxygen/IndVarSimplify_8cpp_source.html

??????? Original Message ???????
On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 5:30 PM, Ian Bicking <ianbicking at gmail.com> wrote:

> I noticed this article about Rust optimizations of sum(1..k), which
> was the same thing people were doing with Idris:
> https://idursun.com/posts/rust_zero_cost_abstractions_in_action/
>
> It's not proof-based, but FWIW it appears Rust knows how to optimize
> this particular operation (which seems weird... how common is summing
> sequences?) and then it does bits of partial evaluation as well.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ian Bicking | http://ianbicking.org



From joe at begriffs.com  Wed Feb 12 04:22:20 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:22:20 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
Message-ID: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>

Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:

* A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
  estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
* Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
  chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
* Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
* Free coffee and various types of tea

It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.

Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
above and set up for quick laptop docking.

We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.

I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.

While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
at night.

From nicholasdrozd at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 12:45:07 2020
From: nicholasdrozd at gmail.com (Nicholas Drozd)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 06:45:07 -0600
Subject: Rust / optimizing away loops
In-Reply-To: <CAHtfchooSnp14L1vJ4ahqRJTR8-c_1261R6sWvLeY=q+ZaG3zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHtfchooSnp14L1vJ4ahqRJTR8-c_1261R6sWvLeY=q+ZaG3zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABAiW0q4JxLt=SA42mfiHi9fiMfbc5fwdiAi9MJnZn+XLXggMA@mail.gmail.com>

According to the Hacker News commentary [1], this is an optimization
at the LLVM level, rather than Rust specifically. These optimizations
are apparently implemented on an ad hoc basis, and are therefore
somewhat brittle. In the case discussed, for example, adding the
clause `if i % 2 == 0` makes the optimization go away. Maybe that kind
of thing isn't common enough for the compiler writer to worry about? I
have no idea how those decisions are made.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22267341

From nicholasdrozd at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 15:04:59 2020
From: nicholasdrozd at gmail.com (Nicholas Drozd)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:04:59 -0600
Subject: Idris / dependent types / proofs
Message-ID: <CABAiW0q4H-B5Hkew4ZcH3sT6VY7EmkC-Ly4ett2emHswCDNDZg@mail.gmail.com>

At the meetup the other night we had some fun with Idris and dependent
types and proofs. Here are some resources for anyone who wants to look
into these topics further.

* The Little Typer

  This book deals with dependent types and their relationship to
  proofs. Just like The Little Schemer and the other books in that
  series, it's written in a "show, don't tell" style that can be
  frustrating at times, but is ultimately quite instructive. It is
  also language-agnostic; if you understand it, you'll be able to
  follow along with any dependently-typed language (Idris, Coq, etc).

  I wrote a review of The Little Typer that gives an overview of its
  basic concepts. Note: the review contains a CAT PICTURE that is
  worth seeing.

* https://nickdrozd.github.io/2019/08/01/little-typer.html

  Did I mention that there is a CAT PICTURE in there?

* Type-Driven Development with Idris

  Written by the creator of the Idris language. In contrast to The
  Little Typer, this book does not focus much on proofs. Instead, it
  advocates for dependent types as a tool for regular software
  development. I'm not sold on this approach, but the book gives a
  great introduction to the practical use of Idris. In particular, it
  describes in detail how to use an editor to interact with the
  type-checker. The specific editor used as an example is Atom (???),
  but the techniques will apply without any trouble to your editor of
  choice, which should be Emacs.

  Basically, The Little Typer is the "what" / "why", and Type-Driven
  Development is the "how". They complement each other well.

* CompCert papers

  CompCert is a C compiler that is written and formally verified in
  Coq. (Idris is a Haskell-like dependently-typed language, while Coq
  is ML-like.) A formally verified C compiler is something that you
  would want when you really, really, really want to be sure that your
  compiler is not introducing any bugs. If you are writing, for
  example, an IRC bouncer in C, then that's probably not something you
  would worry about, but if you are writng embedded logic for a
  generator in a nuclear power plant, you might. Anyway, there are a
  lot of papers about CompCert that go into great depth. The first few
  pages of these papers gives nice overviews (beyond that I get lost).

  - "CompCert: Practical Experience on Integrating and Qualifying a
    Formally Verified Optimizing Compiler"
    (https://xavierleroy.org/publi/erts2018_compcert.pdf)

  - "A formally verified compiler back-end"
    (https://xavierleroy.org/publi/compcert-backend.pdf)

  CompCert and Coq were both developed in France, so here is a paper
  in French:

  - "Comment gagner confiance en C?" [How to win confidence in C?]
    (http://web4.ensiie.fr/~blazy/TSI07Blazy.pdf)

From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Wed Feb 12 17:31:10 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:31:10 +0000
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <58e5b5a4-84bc-c756-c3c7-f0b5e634ccf1@protonmail.com>

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Hash: SHA256

I love the idea of this, I'm currently employed at a company, so there 
isn't a good reason for me to spend a significant amount on an office 
space, but I like the idea of a community funded space where this is 
possible. The more people that we can get to buy in, the cheaper the 
space would be for everyone.

The biggest barrier I see to this is the fact that a lot of spaces 
require a lease for a year or more, so a lot of people would need to be 
locked in for a year (or several months) in order to make sure the space 
is paid for. (or the primary person on the lease would be responsible 
for it). Also the legal logistics of membership to the organization, 
paying taxes if the organization owns the space rather than a specific 
person, etc. I don't have any specific solutions for this.

Another barrier I see is how people will treat the space and 
responsibilities for cleaning and maintaining the space. I see that you 
have reviewed security cards and other ways to secure the space, so I am 
not as concerned with that portion of it. I unfortunately don't have any 
solutions for this either.

A third barrier which kind of goes into the previous barrier is how 
people will treat the equipment that is there for use. Are people going 
to responsibly make it a usable space for the next group that decides to 
have a meeting there? People have trouble enough with doing this in an 
office and I can't imagine the logistics of handling this for a group of 
people from different backgrounds. As said previously, I don't have any 
specific solutions.

I apologize for bringing a bunch of barriers rather than constructive 
feedback, but I am happy to discuss what we could do to eliminate or 
reduce these barriers. As I said in the beginning, I like the idea, it's 
just a bit more complex in execution after thinking through it briefly.

On 2/11/20 10:22 PM, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:
>
> * A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
>    estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
> * Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
>    chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
> * Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
> * Free coffee and various types of tea
>
> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.
>
> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.
>
> We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
>
> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
>
> While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
> that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
> cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
> cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
> meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
> excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
> at night.

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From jplane.tech at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 17:38:31 2020
From: jplane.tech at gmail.com (Joe Lane)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:38:31 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <1E14AEE5-8A23-475B-871F-78881EA350FE@gmail.com>

Joe, it?s Joe Lane, a long time lurker and fellow co-working burnout.

 I WFH right now but this seems like a dream come true. Your commentary about other spaces resonates so well I actually started laughing. 

I?d like to hear more. 

Joe. 

On Feb 11, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:
> 
> * A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
>  estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
> * Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
>  chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
> * Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
> * Free coffee and various types of tea
> 
> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.
> 
> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.
> 
> We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
> 
> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
> 
> While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
> that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
> cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
> cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
> meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
> excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
> at night.

From j3s at c3f.net  Wed Feb 12 18:09:47 2020
From: j3s at c3f.net (j3s)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:09:47 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <1E14AEE5-8A23-475B-871F-78881EA350FE@gmail.com>
References: <1E14AEE5-8A23-475B-871F-78881EA350FE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AD85D6E8-3A44-4917-8F60-6E83324A2BD6@c3f.net>

> ?Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?

I don?t, precisely because I have a small and uncomfortable (to work in) apartment and no alternatives besides the (depressingly drab) office.

> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.

Sounds remarkably like my apartment, now that I think about it...

> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.

I wanted to bring something up - Cyberia (a fellow hacker-centric organization) has been explicitly talking about renting a place to make into a hackerspace for similar reasons. I?ll give them a shout and tell them that this conversation is happening.

I could see this as a co-working space during the day, and a meeting venue/hackerspace during the afternoon/night. I know that several people on our side would be willing to contribute to something like this.

As a fellow wild-eyed dreamer, I would like to propose the idea that if this group?s ideals and Cyberia?s ideals line up, we could - perhaps - talk about going in together.

Jes

From dave at 19a6.net  Wed Feb 12 18:29:53 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:29:53 -0600
Subject: Penguins Unbound 2/15
Message-ID: <EE101D9C-C060-4CED-946D-EB72B5E92139@19a6.net>

Anyone else going to the ipfs talk at the Penguins Unbound meetup at Veritas on Saturday? I'd be down for lunch after.

From ianbicking at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 18:30:58 2020
From: ianbicking at gmail.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:30:58 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>

I've thought about this myself too, though at the moment I've got my
home office in pretty nice shape and I know it's hard to get over the
ease and inertia of a home office. I also spend a fair amount of time
on video calls, which can feel weird or distracting when coworking.

That said, I feel like there's an opportunity if you have a small
committed group of people: trusted people so you can be relatively
open about security, responsible so there's help with cleaning and
maintenance (both of these to avoid the need for staff), and committed
so you know there's enough people to make rent without trying to
hustle up new members all the time.

I'd certainly like the idea of something a bit more rustic and DIY
than the fancy coworking spaces (but still with good light!). Of
course it's cheaper, but it's also an expression of what the goal of
the space is, and the goal of the people in the space: making stuff,
engaging (and rearranging) the collective space, not a lobby
pretending to be an office.

For some inspiration I'd recommend the Steward Brand series, "How
Buildings Learn": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0 (that's
part 1/6, I think part 2 might be most relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09pekAKuXjc)

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:22 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>
> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:
>
> * A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
>   estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
> * Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
>   chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
> * Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
> * Free coffee and various types of tea
>
> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.
>
> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.
>
> We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
>
> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
>
> While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
> that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
> cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
> cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
> meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
> excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
> at night.



-- 
Ian Bicking  |  http://ianbicking.org  |  https://togetherjs.com

From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 18:34:31 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:34:31 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQxgeb4kMJ4TLnis3d7d_B5nwDr-e6A6boc1D6u8jMdR9w@mail.gmail.com>

NOTE: I tried to send a couple messages to this list earlier, but I think
they were bounced for being somehow not plain text enough.
So if you are receiving this twice, sorry about that.

> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit.

This is very relevant to my interests!! Mostly because I have been
hungry for tech community outside of work, now that I'm not at work any
more.

We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
>

Personally, $200 per desk sounds like it might be hard to swing.
I mean, hard to pay rent and bills from just that.
I don't know how expensive office space is, but you also have to consider
things like cost of setting up, keeping up, and managing the space.
What happens when people's checks bounce or they flake out and don't pay?
What happens when someone's laptop gets damaged or stolen and
people get upset?

I don't have any experience running a business like this, but I have managed
several co-housing arrangements in the past few years and if it's anything
similar,
I'd say you should expect something like at least 30% loss on whatever you
think
you can get people to pay you.

Not because I believe that people are inherently bad, but simply because
#%&* happens, when you are bankrolling a project, anything that can go
wrong will go wrong.

Also, what about people who can't afford their rent as it is, let alone an extra
$200+ on top of that?

I probably fall under that category, simply because of how frugally I
have chosen
to live my life.

Obviously not everyone has to sign up for this co-working space, but
I think it would be wise to make something that is more accessible
(lower friction) first that  folks can interact with without paying anything
or asking for permission from anyone. It would probably be easier to get
something started if the initial friction to get involved is closer to zero.

> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
>

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
For something like this to succeed, it's going to take a large, committed
community that has a lot of trust and aligned goals.   I'm new to this
mailing list,
so I don't really know any of yall,  but I would love to meet and work with
folks
on here, for my own self-interested reasons as well as to try to help build
a
strong community.

Luckily, that doesn't require signing a lease!!  There are probably plenty
of
places in the twin cities where folks could post up with laptops en masse
and on a regular basis to work on projects and hang out.

This is something I have been trying to work up the courage to start
inviting people to.
Like the Hack Factory maker space, but for software instead of hardware.
A place where you can always go and meet other software people.
I was imagining it would start as regular hours in a coffee shop or similar
establishment.  Emphasis on heads down working atmosphere, not
always a pizza party social atmosphere.

Use-cases could include:

  *  study group for folks who are doing online bootcamps and want
        more face to face conversation/mentorship.

  *  place for folks who run their own business or work on OSS
         part or full time.

  *  General software and tech hangout that doesn't require you
         to wait for next months meetup.

Would anyone else on this list be interested in something like this ?

Forest


On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:22 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>
> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:
>
> * A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
>   estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
> * Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
>   chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
> * Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
> * Free coffee and various types of tea
>
> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.
>
> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.
>
> We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
>
> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
>
> While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
> that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
> cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
> cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
> meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
> excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
> at night.

From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Wed Feb 12 18:51:08 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 18:51:08 +0000
Subject: Penguins Unbound 2/15
In-Reply-To: <EE101D9C-C060-4CED-946D-EB72B5E92139@19a6.net>
References: <EE101D9C-C060-4CED-946D-EB72B5E92139@19a6.net>
Message-ID: <16fdd21d-dbec-013e-9509-a5302417914e@protonmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Mixed on whether I can make it there, but I'd like to be. 99% chance 
lunch will be had and anyone attending is invited to go.

On 2/12/20 12:29 PM, Dave Bucklin wrote:
> Anyone else going to the ipfs talk at the Penguins Unbound meetup at Veritas on Saturday? I'd be down for lunch after.

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From drewbenson at netjack.com  Wed Feb 12 21:15:54 2020
From: drewbenson at netjack.com (Andrew Benson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 15:15:54 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAGgjgQxgeb4kMJ4TLnis3d7d_B5nwDr-e6A6boc1D6u8jMdR9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGgjgQxgeb4kMJ4TLnis3d7d_B5nwDr-e6A6boc1D6u8jMdR9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <061DEAB9-A854-4F41-8FDC-F134C810E4FF@netjack.com>

One other concern with the money part of things is attrition.  Coworking spaces often get treated a lot like gym memberships ? where people are enthused about them initially, but then after a few months of not going, they crap out.  

Plan financials assuming 2/3 of people who initially sign up will cancel within 6 months.


> 
> On Feb 12, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Forest Johnson <forest.n.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 

?NOTE: I tried to send a couple messages to this list earlier, but I think
they were bounced for being somehow not plain text enough.
So if you are receiving this twice, sorry about that.

> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit.

This is very relevant to my interests!! Mostly because I have been
hungry for tech community outside of work, now that I'm not at work any
more.

We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
> 

Personally, $200 per desk sounds like it might be hard to swing.
I mean, hard to pay rent and bills from just that.
I don't know how expensive office space is, but you also have to consider
things like cost of setting up, keeping up, and managing the space.
What happens when people's checks bounce or they flake out and don't pay?
What happens when someone's laptop gets damaged or stolen and
people get upset?

I don't have any experience running a business like this, but I have managed
several co-housing arrangements in the past few years and if it's anything
similar,
I'd say you should expect something like at least 30% loss on whatever you
think
you can get people to pay you.

Not because I believe that people are inherently bad, but simply because
#%&* happens, when you are bankrolling a project, anything that can go
wrong will go wrong.

Also, what about people who can't afford their rent as it is, let alone an extra
$200+ on top of that?

I probably fall under that category, simply because of how frugally I
have chosen
to live my life.

Obviously not everyone has to sign up for this co-working space, but
I think it would be wise to make something that is more accessible
(lower friction) first that  folks can interact with without paying anything
or asking for permission from anyone. It would probably be easier to get
something started if the initial friction to get involved is closer to zero.

> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
> 

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
For something like this to succeed, it's going to take a large, committed
community that has a lot of trust and aligned goals.   I'm new to this
mailing list,
so I don't really know any of yall,  but I would love to meet and work with
folks
on here, for my own self-interested reasons as well as to try to help build
a
strong community.

Luckily, that doesn't require signing a lease!!  There are probably plenty
of
places in the twin cities where folks could post up with laptops en masse
and on a regular basis to work on projects and hang out.

This is something I have been trying to work up the courage to start
inviting people to.
Like the Hack Factory maker space, but for software instead of hardware.
A place where you can always go and meet other software people.
I was imagining it would start as regular hours in a coffee shop or similar
establishment.  Emphasis on heads down working atmosphere, not
always a pizza party social atmosphere.

Use-cases could include:

 *  study group for folks who are doing online bootcamps and want
       more face to face conversation/mentorship.

 *  place for folks who run their own business or work on OSS
        part or full time.

 *  General software and tech hangout that doesn't require you
        to wait for next months meetup.

Would anyone else on this list be interested in something like this ?

Forest


> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:22 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
> 
> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:
> 
> * A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
>  estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
> * Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
>  chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
> * Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
> * Free coffee and various types of tea
> 
> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.
> 
> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.
> 
> We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
> 
> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
> 
> While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
> that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
> cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
> cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
> meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
> excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
> at night.

From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 13 00:59:03 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 18:59:03 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <58e5b5a4-84bc-c756-c3c7-f0b5e634ccf1@protonmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <58e5b5a4-84bc-c756-c3c7-f0b5e634ccf1@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200213005903.aefzgsbw4obvsrzz@begriffs.com>

Noel Miller wrote:
> The more people that we can get to buy in, the cheaper the space would
> be for everyone.

That's a great point, I hadn't thought of it that way but you're right.
It's an interesting selling point: the more popular the space gets, the
lower the fee gets, so people pay less and get more over time.

> The biggest barrier I see to this is the fact that a lot of spaces
> require a lease for a year or more, so a lot of people would need to
> be locked in for a year (or several months) in order to make sure the
> space is paid for.

Yes the lease length is something to investigate. We could even start
with a small office rental and then grow into bigger spaces as we start
building up a rainy day fund.

For instance, here's a search for office space near downtown between
$1000-$2000 a month:

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/search/off?search_distance=4&postal=55415&min_price=1000&max_price=2000

If we could get just five people to pay $250 per month we'd have $1250
rent right there. Gotta pay for equipment too of course, but looking at
these spaces makes it feel achievable.

> Also the legal logistics of membership to the organization, paying
> taxes if the organization owns the space rather than a specific
> person, etc. I don't have any specific solutions for this.

We'd need to set up a proper legal organization for sure. Technically
this seems like a cooperative, and I bet there are pretty standard legal
structures for this type of thing. Like under what circumstances does it
disband, and who gets what assets? I'd guess people own a stake
proportional to the amount of money they put in over time relative to
everyone else, and if it goes out of business those assets are sold and
proceeds go to the member/owners.

> Another barrier I see is how people will treat the space and
> responsibilities for cleaning and maintaining the space. I see that
> you have reviewed security cards and other ways to secure the space,
> so I am not as concerned with that portion of it. I unfortunately
> don't have any solutions for this either.

Very much this. Perhaps rather than fancy keycards we have a rotation of
caretakers who open and close the space on a given day, clean up messes,
and keep an eye on who's coming and going. Perhaps having that duty X
days per month is a condition of membership. Or maybe there's a higher
priced membership for people who don't want those duties.

> A third barrier which kind of goes into the previous barrier is how 
> people will treat the equipment that is there for use.

That probably also relates to insurance. I'd imagine businesses insure
against damages or injuries on premise, and it may be affordable to
insure equipment beyond normal depreciation.

> Are people going to responsibly make it a usable space for the next
> group that decides to have a meeting there? People have trouble enough
> with doing this in an office and I can't imagine the logistics of
> handling this for a group of people from different backgrounds. As
> said previously, I don't have any specific solutions.

Could require a security deposit from new members to cover in case they
break something. If someone decides to cancel membership and they never
broke anything they would get the deposit back.

> I apologize for bringing a bunch of barriers rather than constructive 
> feedback, but I am happy to discuss what we could do to eliminate or 
> reduce these barriers. As I said in the beginning, I like the idea, it's 
> just a bit more complex in execution after thinking through it briefly.

Thanks for your message. I think it *was* constructive feedback. It's
better to try to figure this stuff out before it happens and not get
into a bad situation.

From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 13 02:01:14 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 20:01:14 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAGgjgQz4qyJt5jp9WyvDGvwfZAoxm0BMmnPUHCWDJWwS2B_7Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAGgjgQz4qyJt5jp9WyvDGvwfZAoxm0BMmnPUHCWDJWwS2B_7Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200213020114.bzq4islxorj3uali@begriffs.com>

Forest Johnson wrote:
> Personally, $200 per desk [...] hard to pay rent and bills from just
> that. I don't know how expensive office space is, but you also have to
> consider things like cost of setting up, keeping up, and managing the
> space.

This first part of getting it off the ground does seem to be the most
challenging. Or maybe I'm naive and it stays challenging forever.  :)
We'll need to research prices for space and equipment and line up more
than enough memberships initially to cover it.

> What happens when people's checks bounce or they flake out and don't pay?

Interesting, didn't think of that. Maybe some forms of payment are
preferable. I remember that for my first rent payment in SF the
landlords required a cashier's check. But perhaps accepting credit card
payments guards against that kind of a flake out?

Also when preparing to rent a building we should probably put the first
members' funds in escrow so they know they can get it back if the
building doesn't come through, and our organization knows it's pledged
when signing for a lease.

> What happens when someone's laptop gets damaged or stolen and people
> get upset?

I haven't heard of that happening at co-working spaces downtown, perhaps
others here know of instances? I think the space should take reasonable
precautions about letting people in and watching over the stuff, but
perhaps we should say that members assume the risk for stolen laptops.

> I don't have any experience running a business like this, but I have
> managed several co-housing arrangements in the past few years and if
> it's anything similar, I'd say you should expect something like at
> least 30% loss on whatever you think you can get people to pay you.

It sounds like you *do* have a lot of experience if you've been a part
of several co-housing arrangements! Can you share more about what you
learned? In what ways did the losses happen?

From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 13 02:07:10 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 20:07:10 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <1E14AEE5-8A23-475B-871F-78881EA350FE@gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <1E14AEE5-8A23-475B-871F-78881EA350FE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200213020710.ktu7n26sp2eaiypo@begriffs.com>

Joe Lane wrote:
> Joe, it?s Joe Lane, a long time lurker and fellow co-working burnout.

Hey haven't seen you in a while, hope you can make it to the next hack
night.

> I WFH right now but this seems like a dream come true. Your commentary
> about other spaces resonates so well I actually started laughing. 

Ha, yeah. :)

> I?d like to hear more. 

I'm curious what kind of things you picture when you imagine a dream
co-working space. Any little touches that would make it better?

From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 13 02:18:09 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 20:18:09 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <AD85D6E8-3A44-4917-8F60-6E83324A2BD6@c3f.net>
References: <1E14AEE5-8A23-475B-871F-78881EA350FE@gmail.com>
 <AD85D6E8-3A44-4917-8F60-6E83324A2BD6@c3f.net>
Message-ID: <20200213021809.biwwuaybv2jtu52o@begriffs.com>

j3s wrote:
> I wanted to bring something up - Cyberia (a fellow hacker-centric
> organization) has been explicitly talking about renting a place to
> make into a hackerspace for similar reasons. I?ll give them a shout
> and tell them that this conversation is happening.

Please do! Cyberia has a knack for organization, with a treasurer and
rules of order, and all that. Tapping into that experience would be
valuable when attempting a big project that involves money and
commitments.

Also, as a reminder, if you want to share the conversation with Cyberia
folks it's archived at https://talk.begriffs.com/pipermail/friends/

> I could see this as a co-working space during the day, and a meeting
> venue/hackerspace during the afternoon/night. I know that several
> people on our side would be willing to contribute to something like
> this.
> 
> As a fellow wild-eyed dreamer, I would like to propose the idea that
> if this group?s ideals and Cyberia?s ideals line up, we could -
> perhaps - talk about going in together.

For sure -- the more members get in on it the more experience and
resources we have, and the more we can achieve.

From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 13 03:28:44 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 21:28:44 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>

Ian Bicking wrote:
> I've thought about this myself too, though at the moment I've got my
> home office in pretty nice shape and I know it's hard to get over the
> ease and inertia of a home office. I also spend a fair amount of time
> on video calls, which can feel weird or distracting when coworking.

I'm happy to hear it's not just me who has been wanting more out of
co-working. I feel you about the home office, I've been improving mine
over time too and in terms of equipment it's pretty comfortable. And
certain days there's no way I'm leaving home if I don't have to, like
when it's -20 wind chill.

What I find lacking about my home office is a mental boundary around
work time, like stepping into another place and being "at work." Also I
like to have people around, to have random chats, or go out for lunch.

As far as the video calls yeah the home office is the best -- it's quiet
and all set up, you don't have to go to some other corner to take a
call. But over all I think I'd rather be in the dream co-working space
most days even if the calls are less convenient.

> I'd certainly like the idea of something a bit more rustic and DIY
> than the fancy coworking spaces (but still with good light!). Of
> course it's cheaper, but it's also an expression of what the goal of
> the space is, and the goal of the people in the space: making stuff,
> engaging (and rearranging) the collective space, not a lobby
> pretending to be an office.

I agree with you completely. I've always felt more at ease in
warehouses and "low road" places.

> For some inspiration I'd recommend the Steward Brand series, "How
> Buildings Learn": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0 (that's
> part 1/6, I think part 2 might be most relevant:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09pekAKuXjc)

That was a beautiful video, thank you! I like how they put that feeling
into words. Maybe we should check out spaces in Minneapolis' warehouse
district.

From dfeldman.mn at gmail.com  Thu Feb 13 03:52:32 2020
From: dfeldman.mn at gmail.com (Daniel Feldman)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 21:52:32 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all!

I guess I'm another coworking burnout. I really enjoyed it for about
six months, and then I started to become unhappy with the cost and
inflexibility and found it easier just to stay at home.

It's really hard to start a coworking space though. There are around
50 coworking spaces in the cities, and they're all subsidized by
investors. If you assume $2/sf/month (typical for non-downtown
Minneapolis office space), and 200 sf/desk (average office), you're
looking at $400/month before accounting for any other bills. In order
to make it economical you need to find a below-market space, or really
squeeze people in.

David Duccini's SPPX space in St Paul might fit the bill for some
folks. Last time I talked to him, it was $250/month for a reserved
desk. I'm not sure anyone outside his company is actually using it
right now, but there are a lot of very geeky people who go through
there and multiple meetups a week.

Something even more out there is the General Store DAO in Uptown. Pay
for your coworking with smart contracts!
https://www.thegeneralstore.me/

Finally, I've been working with some friends at Blackstack Brewing
lately. It's pretty empty during the day, and they have tons of power
outlets, coffee and food. Maybe a good cheap option for folks.

Daniel

From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 13 04:34:02 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 22:34:02 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>

Daniel Feldman wrote:
> If you assume $2/sf/month (typical for non-downtown Minneapolis office
> space), and 200 sf/desk (average office), you're looking at $400/month
> before accounting for any other bills. In order to make it economical
> you need to find a below-market space, or really squeeze people in.

Hmm, good way to break it down. It provides some guidelines when looking
for space, like it has to be less than $N/sqft. Although 200 sqft is
like 14x14, which seems like a huge amount of space per dedicated desk,
if those desks are in the same room.

> David Duccini's SPPX space in St Paul might fit the bill for some
> folks. Last time I talked to him, it was $250/month for a reserved
> desk.

Good tip, do you know his email?

> Something even more out there is the General Store DAO in Uptown. Pay
> for your coworking with smart contracts!
> https://www.thegeneralstore.me/

How did those mentally unhinged people get such an expensive space?
They're going on about Abraham Lincoln, cryptocurrency, and holographic
consensus...sounds like a crackhead on San Francisco muni!

> Finally, I've been working with some friends at Blackstack Brewing
> lately. It's pretty empty during the day, and they have tons of power
> outlets, coffee and food. Maybe a good cheap option for folks.

Might be a good candidate for what Forest was saying about starting
small without signing any leases. Maybe in the next couple weeks we
could try a group trip.

From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 13 05:40:31 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:40:31 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQzfCh+ZSbAyq_cCxQ6AeK6cpsG=Zb=WSu6GohMCQVszPQ@mail.gmail.com>

>> I don't have any experience running a business like this, but I have
>> managed several co-housing arrangements in the past few years and if
>> it's anything similar, I'd say you should expect something like at
>> least 30% loss on whatever you think you can get people to pay you.

> It sounds like you *do* have a lot of experience if you've been a part
> of several co-housing arrangements! Can you share more about what you
> learned? In what ways did the losses happen?

Folks in my generation who don't have rich parents and aren't working
in tech cant afford rent any more. So typically what they do is ,
a group of friends will pool their money to rent a single, usually larger
apartment, everyone gets their own bedroom and shares the
common areas.

I did this for about 4 years and since I was the one with the tech job,
I was the one who could (literally) wave a stacks of hundred dollar bills
in front of the property manager so they would give us a lease.

This kind of thing is not exactly legal in Minneapolis, but the economic
reality of our time brings such a demand for it that most landlords are
fine with it as long as you can pay.

Because I am a nice guy and because kicking my friends out when
they cant pay is not in my best interest in this situation, they knew
that if they didn't pay, the repercussions would be light on them.
So in many cases, they just didn't pay. Not because they were
greedy, often times it was because they simply didn't have the money.

Usually this was a temporary thing, but I ended up calling it quits
and moving into a single bedroom with my partner after one of these
co-houses sort of exploded on me, with two roommates breaking up
with each-other and wanting to move out, and another one backing
out because she got an opportunity to travel. We had to find new folks
to replace them. This put us in a situation where the people
coming in knew, even if they didn't/couldn't pay, we had no real
reason to kick them out as long as they were fun to be around.

So I ended up paying for a lot of rent for an extended period of time.
Nothing that would break the bank, but it was still not the best
experience. Compared to the amount of money I saved by co-housing,
it was probably not that much.

Co-working spaces probably have similar/different problems.

First of all,  the people here are involved with technology somehow
so it's likely they would have more disposable income and the
inability to pay would be less of a concern.

However, I think the problem of NEEDING people to fill your space
would remain the same. If you need folks to stick around in order to
make rent each month, people will take advantage of you, whether
they realize they are doing it or not.

But if the product was in such high demand that there were folks
lining up out to door to get a desk, maybe it could be a stable,
viable thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The more I thought about this and talked about it with some of the
Cyberia folks, the more I realized that if something like this existed,
it would actually be really good for me. So, I guess you can count me
as interested.

I think you would want to learn as much as possible about the
co-working space market and the commercial real-estate market
in the cities. What motivates market participants?
What do they look for? How do they differentiate things?
Who are the major players? What are the rules?

I briefly perused the search feature on loopnet.com and found
some cheap spaces allegedly for rent. But something tells me that
any space which is actually  going for less than the normal rate
has got to have problems ...  The trick is to find the place that has
problems you can live with.

From pstelzig at gmx.com  Thu Feb 13 14:15:20 2020
From: pstelzig at gmx.com (paul)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:15:20 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200213020114.bzq4islxorj3uali@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAGgjgQz4qyJt5jp9WyvDGvwfZAoxm0BMmnPUHCWDJWwS2B_7Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213020114.bzq4islxorj3uali@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <41fc627c0c04b8b2d139c6f7ec336c1b84731bdd.camel@gmx.com>

On Wed, 2020-02-12 at 20:01 -0600, Joe Nelson wrote:
>
>
> Interesting, didn't think of that. Maybe some forms of payment are
> preferable. I remember that for my first rent payment in SF the
> landlords required a cashier's check. But perhaps accepting credit
> card
> payments guards against that kind of a flake out?
>

Credit card would be about the worst, it is too easy to do a
chargeback.  The best payments would be cash or crypto curency once
they happen they can't be reversed but the number of people who have
either in enough quanity is too small to support a space like this.


From dfeldman.mn at gmail.com  Thu Feb 13 16:09:10 2020
From: dfeldman.mn at gmail.com (Daniel Feldman)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:09:10 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAOmUX7KbyR6ctxLAMYz511B+QLcwW7+pTRENkAwhvRcaqHwZGg@mail.gmail.com>

> > David Duccini's SPPX space in St Paul might fit the bill for some
> > folks.
>
> Good tip, do you know his email?

dduccini at gmail

> How did those mentally unhinged people get such an expensive space?

I assume they got rich on early Bitcoin :)

Daniel

From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 13 16:36:52 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:36:52 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAOmUX7KbyR6ctxLAMYz511B+QLcwW7+pTRENkAwhvRcaqHwZGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7KbyR6ctxLAMYz511B+QLcwW7+pTRENkAwhvRcaqHwZGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQzk0m=yOhWw0ynE9LBnb7ajC6Kxg+s-m8+zd5=i4+2REw@mail.gmail.com>

>> On Wed, 2020-02-12 at 20:01 -0600, Joe Nelson wrote:
>>
>> Interesting, didn't think of that. Maybe some forms of payment are
>> preferable. I remember that for my first rent payment in SF the
>> landlords required a cashier's check. But perhaps accepting credit
>> card payments guards against that kind of a flake out?
>>

> Credit card would be about the worst, it is too easy to do a
> chargeback.  The best payments would be cash or crypto curency once
> they happen they can't be reversed but the number of people who have
> either in enough quanity is too small to support a space like this.

When I brought up the "checks bounce, people flake out, laptop stolen"
FUD it wasn't  really about the specifics, i was trying to talk about the
general themes of "maybe people don't want to or cant pay for this,
maybe they have an experience that makes them not want to go
there anymore"

It could be anything, it doesn't have to be a check bouncing or a
chargeback. It could simply be that they get in a fight with someone
else in the space who they dis-agree with and puts a storm cloud
over the space.

In general I believe the antidote to these kinds of problems would be
the space being wanted/needed by the people who go there
moreso than the space wanting/needing people to go there in
the first place.  It would set up the dynamic in such a
way that it's in everyone's best interest to help out and make it
a sustainable project rather than taking advantage of it or
abandoning it.

Crypto-currency is cool, but I think requiring it would alienate
more than it would help anything.

From chuck at cpjj.net  Thu Feb 13 17:32:12 2020
From: chuck at cpjj.net (Chuck Jungmann)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:32:12 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <b7bac24b-1eda-406a-11d0-add6ac8642c9@cpjj.net>

I am currently in a coworking situation.? I pay $120 monthly for a 24/7 
open desk.

It's pretty quiet, which suits me for getting work done, but I'd like to 
be in a place where I can share ideas and experience.

One characteristic of this place that contributes to its low cost is 
that it is unused space in a building with a business that owns (or 
perhaps leases) the entire building.? They are paying for the space 
whether it's used or not, so coworking clients are a bonus rather than a 
necessity.

I wonder if we could find a similar situation (a business with extra 
space it might be willing to sublease).? That might be a company that 
has had lay-offs or a company whose growth is slower than expected.

On 2/11/20 10:22 PM, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Anybody else on the list work remotely, or work on your own business?
> I've tried a few co-working spaces in town and have recently been
> touring some more. Fueled Collective, Scout Workshop, WeWork,
> Industrious, Novel. None of them quite fit. Here's what I'm looking for:
>
> * A concentration of other *tech people* -- not bankers, lawyers, real
>    estate agents, agribusiness, or political non-profits
> * Ergonomic equipment -- sit/stand desks, anti-fatigue mats, ergonomic
>    chairs, real monitors on arms, nice keyboards and mice
> * Some natural light, not a soul sucking cave or glass honeycomb
> * Free coffee and various types of tea
>
> It's like a lot of the spaces around us aren't designed by people who do
> serious computer work every day, but by hipster interior designers who
> think we want motivation quotes on the walls and accent colors. They
> just throw some empty desks and crap chairs in a room and call it good.
>
> Now that the friends list has grown bigger, thought I'd float the idea
> out there... What if we made our own co-working space? Everybody would
> have a floating desk, but all the desks would be awesome as described
> above and set up for quick laptop docking.
>
> We could charge a modest amount like $200 or $250 a month.  Have a
> projector for hosting tech meetups in the evenings.  Have a serious
> gigabit lan and fiber internet. Make the space hackable, with big
> monitors on the walls that members could display anything on, like
> interactive bus/train times, weather, messages, whatever.
>
> I'm more of the wild-eyed dreamer type, so I'd need input from the more
> business minded among us in how this could actually work, but I'm
> curious if it's possible. Like how much is it to rent part of a floor in
> a building, can we line up pre-orders by members to cover it, how do we
> manage physical access with keycards or whatever, do spaces have basic
> kitchen facilities set up, etc etc.
>
> While co-working spaces seem like one of those classic business traps
> that are a money sinkhole and often fail, I'm just picturing a really
> cool place that basically becomes the heart of technology in the twin
> cities. All the best independent people working there, hosting the best
> meetups, with the best equipment, alive with inventions, getting people
> excited, with commercial work in the day and guests and hacking sessions
> at night.

From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 13 17:40:08 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:40:08 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <b7bac24b-1eda-406a-11d0-add6ac8642c9@cpjj.net>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <b7bac24b-1eda-406a-11d0-add6ac8642c9@cpjj.net>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQy_TPG87VvjUyPfXN1qpF+da4DtvQg2YQTPqac22fQOdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:32 AM Chuck Jungmann <chuck at cpjj.net> wrote:
>
> I am currently in a coworking situation.  I pay $120 monthly for a 24/7
> open desk.
>

Whoa, that sounds definitely very cheap. Do they have space open there?
How many people work there now? Can we all just crowd in over there? :P

> It's pretty quiet, which suits me for getting work done, but I'd like to
> be in a place where I can share ideas and experience.
>
> One characteristic of this place that contributes to its low cost is
> that it is unused space in a building with a business that owns (or
> perhaps leases) the entire building.  They are paying for the space
> whether it's used or not, so coworking clients are a bonus rather than a
> necessity.
>

Taking up unused space in an existing corporate office sounds like a
great idea to cut costs. Especially if it didn't come with any
significant drawbacks.

From ian at ianbicking.org  Thu Feb 13 17:56:29 2020
From: ian at ianbicking.org (Ian Bicking)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:56:29 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHtfchr03mY91m2nZUUk087yTrPHNuWhWfvR-NZF9tcsTr6-zg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's something for a sweet $1/sqft/month:
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/4010-4016-Bloomington-Ave-S-Minneapolis-MN/16496444/
? and with great access to a Family Dollar!

But still, it does seem more reasonable to start with ad hoc spaces
and see if there's really a community-in-waiting (or one that can be
built), and only make hard commitments from there.




On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 9:59 PM Daniel Feldman <dfeldman.mn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all!
>
> I guess I'm another coworking burnout. I really enjoyed it for about
> six months, and then I started to become unhappy with the cost and
> inflexibility and found it easier just to stay at home.
>
> It's really hard to start a coworking space though. There are around
> 50 coworking spaces in the cities, and they're all subsidized by
> investors. If you assume $2/sf/month (typical for non-downtown
> Minneapolis office space), and 200 sf/desk (average office), you're
> looking at $400/month before accounting for any other bills. In order
> to make it economical you need to find a below-market space, or really
> squeeze people in.
>
> David Duccini's SPPX space in St Paul might fit the bill for some
> folks. Last time I talked to him, it was $250/month for a reserved
> desk. I'm not sure anyone outside his company is actually using it
> right now, but there are a lot of very geeky people who go through
> there and multiple meetups a week.
>
> Something even more out there is the General Store DAO in Uptown. Pay
> for your coworking with smart contracts!
> https://www.thegeneralstore.me/
>
> Finally, I've been working with some friends at Blackstack Brewing
> lately. It's pretty empty during the day, and they have tons of power
> outlets, coffee and food. Maybe a good cheap option for folks.
>
> Daniel



--
Ian Bicking  |  http://ianbicking.org

From drewbenson at netjack.com  Thu Feb 13 19:19:07 2020
From: drewbenson at netjack.com (Andrew Benson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:19:07 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAGgjgQy_TPG87VvjUyPfXN1qpF+da4DtvQg2YQTPqac22fQOdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <b7bac24b-1eda-406a-11d0-add6ac8642c9@cpjj.net>
 <CAGgjgQy_TPG87VvjUyPfXN1qpF+da4DtvQg2YQTPqac22fQOdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32A6D835-C3B6-46AD-8346-A383D97FF32A@netjack.com>

And where, roughly, is it?

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Forest Johnson <forest.n.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:32 AM Chuck Jungmann <chuck at cpjj.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I am currently in a coworking situation.  I pay $120 monthly for a 24/7
>> open desk.
>> 
> 
> Whoa, that sounds definitely very cheap. Do they have space open there?
> How many people work there now? Can we all just crowd in over there? :P
> 
>> It's pretty quiet, which suits me for getting work done, but I'd like to
>> be in a place where I can share ideas and experience.
>> 
>> One characteristic of this place that contributes to its low cost is
>> that it is unused space in a building with a business that owns (or
>> perhaps leases) the entire building.  They are paying for the space
>> whether it's used or not, so coworking clients are a bonus rather than a
>> necessity.
>> 
> 
> Taking up unused space in an existing corporate office sounds like a
> great idea to cut costs. Especially if it didn't come with any
> significant drawbacks.


From joe at begriffs.com  Fri Feb 14 01:53:27 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:53:27 -0600
Subject: Co-working space - Summary and proposal
In-Reply-To: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>

Here's my summary/interpretation of everyone's responses:

Summary
-------

* General agreement that traditional co-working spaces don't offer very
  good amenities for prolonged computer use, and that ones around here
  have a low concentration of tech people. A number of people on the
  list are "co-working burnouts," myself included.

* Cyberia and Assembly are already thinking about forming new co-working
  spaces in the twin cities.

* A cooperative model gives us leverage beyond what we have
  individually, including lower costs per person.

* However each additional person requires more space, so the market rate
  per square foot imposes a lower bound on the per-person rental cost.
  Our collective purchasing power doesn't affect this. It's possible to
  find cheaper rates, but those spaces will have something wrong with
  them.

* Some buildings are cheaper because what's "wrong" with them is that
  they are unprofessional, so-called "low road" structures. That might
  be fine for our purposes.

* The cooperative must not become dependent on a small subset of
  members. For instance being barely able to pay the bills and requiring
  every member to stick with it in order to survive. This would guilt
  people about leaving, and potentially cause people to abuse the
  situation.

* Two factors that make co-working fragile are locking into a long lease
  with a building, and the attrition of members.

* A way to make co-working less fragile is to hitchhike with an
  existing business (such as SPPX) rather than trying to rent an empty
  place. It helps a business utilize extra space, and potentially works
  on a month to month basis.

* The shortest, most flexible businesses for hitchhiking are pubs,
  restaurants or coffee shops, and apparently there's a strong
  co-working contingent at Blackstack Brewing.

Suggestion
----------

Create a legal cooperative entity with a bank account. Ask around at
local businesses to see who has some extra space to rent. Have everyone
pay into the cooperative account, and then pay the host business each
month from the common account.

Add an extra ($30?) per-person monthly fee on top of what's required to
cover expenses. This would begin to create a surplus. If people
decided to stop co-working they wouldn't get that fee back.

The first things to start buying with the surplus would be equipment
from Freegeek like monitors. Then get some sit-stand desks or adapters
from Craigslist. Gradually put together the equipment, so each month the
space gets nicer. Presumably our host business would already have basic
free desks and chairs to start with.

Over time we could continue looking for new places to work, using group
buying power to find deals, while growing the surplus. As another
benefit, member dues may be tax deductible even for salaried workers if
our organization is a non-profit.

Does this sound like the right direction?

From pstelzig at gmx.com  Fri Feb 14 02:30:41 2020
From: pstelzig at gmx.com (paul)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:30:41 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <CAGgjgQzk0m=yOhWw0ynE9LBnb7ajC6Kxg+s-m8+zd5=i4+2REw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <CAHtfchqTdng4N7y_ypX-yN_QgeTZcbtqs--jherJ9rCK6jvmfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213032844.s2zjvjoypd7j2h4i@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7JJ2CrZEmpvgB7i8ceTu+BoLMC-EQS6KXsOU-WvRwwLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200213043402.pbi5wch5cpr35pne@begriffs.com>
 <CAOmUX7KbyR6ctxLAMYz511B+QLcwW7+pTRENkAwhvRcaqHwZGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGgjgQzk0m=yOhWw0ynE9LBnb7ajC6Kxg+s-m8+zd5=i4+2REw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e5238cce6da2812eafbdc38b570eeddcfa18e79.camel@gmx.com>

On Thu, 2020-02-13 at 10:36 -0600, Forest Johnson wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2020-02-12 at 20:01 -0600, Joe Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > Interesting, didn't think of that. Maybe some forms of payment
> > > are
> > > preferable. I remember that for my first rent payment in SF the
> > > landlords required a cashier's check. But perhaps accepting
> > > credit
> > > card payments guards against that kind of a flake out?
> > >
> > Credit card would be about the worst, it is too easy to do a
> > chargeback.  The best payments would be cash or crypto curency once
> > they happen they can't be reversed but the number of people who
> > have
> > either in enough quanity is too small to support a space like this.
>
> When I brought up the "checks bounce, people flake out, laptop
> stolen"
> FUD it wasn't  really about the specifics, i was trying to talk about
> the
> general themes of "maybe people don't want to or cant pay for this,
> maybe they have an experience that makes them not want to go
> there anymore"
>
> It could be anything, it doesn't have to be a check bouncing or a
> chargeback. It could simply be that they get in a fight with someone
> else in the space who they dis-agree with and puts a storm cloud
> over the space.

I'd agree with that my comment for more that CC doesn't guard against
money going away, and it's worse than bounced checks.   Taking CC might
make sence because that is how most people pay for things so it would
bring the biggest potencial market but it's not a safe way to get money
you have to know that it can go away as quickly as it comes in.

> In general I believe the antidote to these kinds of problems would be
> the space being wanted/needed by the people who go there
> moreso than the space wanting/needing people to go there in
> the first place.  It would set up the dynamic in such a
> way that it's in everyone's best interest to help out and make it
> a sustainable project rather than taking advantage of it or
> abandoning it.
>
> Crypto-currency is cool, but I think requiring it would alienate
> more than it would help anything.

Yep, there is no chance that you could find enough people interested in
a space like this that deal in crypto normally.

Also payment type only helps maters with current payments, it doesn't
ensure that they continue.


From pstelzig at gmx.com  Fri Feb 14 02:45:50 2020
From: pstelzig at gmx.com (paul)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:45:50 -0600
Subject: Co-working space - Summary and proposal
In-Reply-To: <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <fac7889d463678f46373a6d8992e035e2347b7ff.camel@gmx.com>

On Thu, 2020-02-13 at 19:53 -0600, Joe Nelson wrote:
>
> Suggestion
> ----------
>
> Create a legal cooperative entity with a bank account. Ask around at
> local businesses to see who has some extra space to rent. Have
> everyone
> pay into the cooperative account, and then pay the host business each
> month from the common account.

It would be a good idea to figure out what kind of legal entity to use,
to make sure individual members aren't financial liable if there any
issues in the future.  A traditional corporation does this, I don't
know if there are alternatives.

> Add an extra ($30?) per-person monthly fee on top of what's required
> to
> cover expenses. This would begin to create a surplus. If people
> decided to stop co-working they wouldn't get that fee back.

Building in extra cash flow is going to be needed, people are going to
leave for all kinds of reasons and you need to make sure the cash is
available to cover the expenses.

>
> The first things to start buying with the surplus would be equipment
> from Freegeek like monitors. Then get some sit-stand desks or
> adapters
> from Craigslist. Gradually put together the equipment, so each month
> the
> space gets nicer. Presumably our host business would already have
> basic
> free desks and chairs to start with.
>
> Over time we could continue looking for new places to work, using
> group
> buying power to find deals, while growing the surplus. As another
> benefit, member dues may be tax deductible even for salaried workers
> if
> our organization is a non-profit.

A non profit is a larger hurdle, I think that would require an actual
corp with a board and bylaws, also I'm not sure that dues that are
paid  in exchange for a service like this would be deductible.

> Does this sound like the right direction?

For me I'm just on the sidelines, I've got a regular office job and if
I was looking for office space I live too far away for Mineapolis to be
a reasonable location.
It does sound reasonable start but it also sounds like it could be a
lot of work to setup.



From chuck at cpjj.net  Fri Feb 14 02:47:17 2020
From: chuck at cpjj.net (Chuck Jungmann)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:47:17 -0600
Subject: Co-working space
In-Reply-To: <32A6D835-C3B6-46AD-8346-A383D97FF32A@netjack.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <b7bac24b-1eda-406a-11d0-add6ac8642c9@cpjj.net>
 <CAGgjgQy_TPG87VvjUyPfXN1qpF+da4DtvQg2YQTPqac22fQOdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32A6D835-C3B6-46AD-8346-A383D97FF32A@netjack.com>
Message-ID: <67cfae96-4090-59d7-f0f1-3145f43777f8@cpjj.net>

https://www.studiocowork.com/

It's the former KQRS broadcasting studio in Golden Valley.? It's on West 
side of Highway 100, just North of Highway 55.

The website is a couple of years old, so pay no attention to mentions of 
networking events.? They invite the cowork people to summer and 
Christmas office parties thrown by the hosting business, but not many 
coworkers attend.

On 2/13/20 1:19 PM, Andrew Benson wrote:
> And where, roughly, is it?
>
>> On Feb 13, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Forest Johnson <forest.n.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:32 AM Chuck Jungmann <chuck at cpjj.net> wrote:
>>> I am currently in a coworking situation.  I pay $120 monthly for a 24/7
>>> open desk.
>>>
>> Whoa, that sounds definitely very cheap. Do they have space open there?
>> How many people work there now? Can we all just crowd in over there? :P
>>
>>> It's pretty quiet, which suits me for getting work done, but I'd like to
>>> be in a place where I can share ideas and experience.
>>>
>>> One characteristic of this place that contributes to its low cost is
>>> that it is unused space in a building with a business that owns (or
>>> perhaps leases) the entire building.  They are paying for the space
>>> whether it's used or not, so coworking clients are a bonus rather than a
>>> necessity.
>>>
>> Taking up unused space in an existing corporate office sounds like a
>> great idea to cut costs. Especially if it didn't come with any
>> significant drawbacks.

From dklann at grunch.org  Fri Feb 14 14:58:47 2020
From: dklann at grunch.org (David Klann)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:58:47 -0600
Subject: Co-working space - Summary and proposal
In-Reply-To: <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <197411a20de11927908da3c6b375241f8dff64f1.camel@grunch.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hi Joe, this is a great summary. I've been watching the thread with interest.
I'm definitely a candidate to make use of a co-working space. And I like the
feel of things I'm reading in the thread.

On Thu, 2020-02-13 at 19:53 -0600, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Here's my summary/interpretation of everyone's responses:
> 
> Summary
> -------
> 
> * General agreement that traditional co-working spaces don't offer very
>   good amenities for prolonged computer use, and that ones around here
>   have a low concentration of tech people. A number of people on the
>   list are "co-working burnouts," myself included.
> 

I'm an independent consultant, and have a comfortable home office, but like
others have mentioned here, I too would like some social and technical
interaction with others. I watched with great interest the Stewart Brand video
that Ian linked to. I definitely prefer the "low road"...

> ...
> 
> * Two factors that make co-working fragile are locking into a long lease
>   with a building, and the attrition of members.
> 

I'll add some "wisdom" that a friend imparted to me when I started the
consulting thing: when you strike out on a new endeavor like this you have to
want to "run the business" at least as much as you want to do the work of the
business. In the case of forging ahead with a co-working space someone will
need to be that person who wants to "run the business" as much as they want to
have a great co-working space. (Maybe that's you Joe? Maybe someone else...)

> * A way to make co-working less fragile is to hitchhike with an
>   existing business (such as SPPX) rather than trying to rent an empty
>   place. It helps a business utilize extra space, and potentially works
>   on a month to month basis.
> 
> * The shortest, most flexible businesses for hitchhiking are pubs,
>   restaurants or coffee shops, and apparently there's a strong
>   co-working contingent at Blackstack Brewing.
> 

This might be a simple way to get started requiring much less effort to "run
the business".

> Suggestion
> ----------
> 
> Create a legal cooperative entity with a bank account. Ask around at
> local businesses to see who has some extra space to rent. Have everyone
> pay into the cooperative account, and then pay the host business each80
> month from the common account.
> 
> Add an extra ($30?) per-person monthly fee on top of what's required to
> cover expenses. This would begin to create a surplus. If people
> decided to stop co-working they wouldn't get that fee back.
> 
> The first things to start buying with the surplus would be equipment
> from Freegeek like monitors. Then get some sit-stand desks or adapters
> from Craigslist. Gradually put together the equipment, so each month the
> space gets nicer. Presumably our host business would already have basic
> free desks and chairs to start with.
> 
> Over time we could continue looking for new places to work, using group
> buying power to find deals, while growing the surplus. As another
> benefit, member dues may be tax deductible even for salaried workers if
> our organization is a non-profit.
> 
> Does this sound like the right direction?

This sounds like a reasonable way to get started. Thanks for the on-going
conversation!

  ~David Klann

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From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 14 16:04:58 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:58 -0600
Subject: Co-working space - Summary and proposal
In-Reply-To: <fac7889d463678f46373a6d8992e035e2347b7ff.camel@gmx.com>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>
 <fac7889d463678f46373a6d8992e035e2347b7ff.camel@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQyULPNEb3e0aPqxZQzLsgBuMVRcLx_RYo+22ccs-fHfgQ@mail.gmail.com>

> * A way to make co-working less fragile is to hitchhike with an
>  existing business (such as SPPX) rather than trying to rent an empty
>  place. It helps a business utilize extra space, and potentially works
>  on a month to month basis.

Besides being "Not Invented Here"  the Studio Co-Work place in Golden
Valley (919 Lilac Dr N) sounded like it could be a good starting
point, at least to me. It's cheap, its not super far away (I would
classify it as "within biking range" of the Minneapolis urban core).
There is even a bike trail that goes through Theodore Wirth park a
block from the doorway. But your mileage (literally) may vary.

I would definitely be interested in getting a desk there if I visited
and didn't see anything wrong with it. Would anyone else on this list
be interested in giving this place a try with me?  Perhaps as an
intermediate while looking for / thinking about renting our own.

From j3s at c3f.net  Fri Feb 14 17:07:06 2020
From: j3s at c3f.net (j3s)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:07:06 -0600
Subject: Co-working space - Summary and proposal
In-Reply-To: <fac7889d463678f46373a6d8992e035e2347b7ff.camel@gmx.com>
References: <fac7889d463678f46373a6d8992e035e2347b7ff.camel@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <A924F7BA-D1FD-4156-A41B-30381DA695AA@c3f.net>


> It would be a good idea to figure out what kind of legal entity to use,
> to make sure individual members aren't financial liable if there any
> issues in the future.  A traditional corporation does this, I don't
> know if there are alternatives.

Almost every kind of associated corporation is an alternative. Types of orgs that give you liability shields include traditional c-corps, b-corps, nonprofits, and even LLCs.

I?d recommend an LLC or nonprofit if we?re considering forming an organization. A nonprofit is significantly more overhead.

>> A non profit is a larger hurdle, I think that would require an actual
> corp with a board and bylaws, also I'm not sure that dues that are
> paid  in exchange for a service like this would be deductible.

A nonprofit is not a larger hurdle than a c-corp - it requires an almost identical amount of maintenance as a c-corp.

Also, a nonprofit is not tax deductible by itself. If a nonprofit chooses to pursue 501c3 status, that gives it:

1. An assload more be overhead to deal with
2. Tax benefits

I would highly recommend against pursuing a 501c3 unless it?s definitely absolutely what we want.

Notably, it?s trivial to change an LLC into a nonprofit and vice versa. Not so with a 501c3.


> it could be a lot of work to setup.

In total, absolutely. But the org establishment can be as simple as signing an LLC document in an afternoon, or as complicated as drafting and voting on bylaws and electing officers, depending on desires.

From dave at 19a6.net  Tue Feb 18 17:00:25 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:00:25 -0600
Subject: Domestic Computing
Message-ID: <4B06E286-C503-41BE-B521-A32D71C5060A@19a6.net>

I came across this in TLDR. The author compares the commercial connotations behind 'learn to code' with the domestic connotations behind 'learn to cook'.

https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/home-cooked-app/

I wrote something similar at the end of last year.

https://davebucklin.com/play/2019/11/10/programming-as-craft.html

Given the prevalence of high tech in our lives, I think it's important to develop a competency that isn't necessarily driven by  the need to make money. I think there's a relationship here to what j3s has called "data sovereignty".

From ianbicking at gmail.com  Tue Feb 18 18:51:01 2020
From: ianbicking at gmail.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:51:01 -0600
Subject: Game of Life
Message-ID: <CAHtfchr_DyXZgpx_5xoUM2HBkVL7YUanvY7Vup3THkV9uQfyNw@mail.gmail.com>

We talked about the Game of Life the other day but never actually got
further. But to see an inspired version of it:

https://boingboing.net/2020/02/17/cool-retro-console-lets-you-pl.html

  Ian

From brian at brianmaddy.com  Wed Feb 19 03:12:36 2020
From: brian at brianmaddy.com (Brian Maddy)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 21:12:36 -0600
Subject: Hi, I'm Brian.
Message-ID: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

My name is Brian Maddy. Joe Nelson invited me to this group and
suggested I introduce myself.

I'm a software developer and have been an independent contractor since
about 2008. I've worked with everything from Fortune 50 companies down
to numerous startups. I'm a big fan of functional programming, but am
always interested in learning new ideas (in the functional world or
elsewhere). Right now I'm doing bill processing stuff in Clojure. Some
of my recent interests have included Prolog, rules engines, forward vs
backward chaining, temporal and bi-temporal databases, incremental
computation, metaheuristics, and other types of machine learning. That
said, I'm still a novice with many of those.

I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone!

Cheers,
Brian

From dave at 19a6.net  Wed Feb 19 07:35:01 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:35:01 -0600
Subject: Hi, I'm Brian.
In-Reply-To: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CE01CF6-D416-47B4-A610-6821C0533869@19a6.net>



On February 18, 2020 9:12:36 PM CST, Brian Maddy <brian at brianmaddy.com> wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My name is Brian Maddy. Joe Nelson invited me to this group and
>suggested I introduce myself.

Welcome, Brian. It's good to have you.

From mxu at uribe.cc  Wed Feb 19 16:42:26 2020
From: mxu at uribe.cc (Mauricio Uribe)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 11:42:26 -0500
Subject: Hi, I'm Brian.
In-Reply-To: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0091856-5281-5302-0710-0e029817fb83@uribe.cc>

On 2/18/20 10:12 PM, Brian Maddy wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My name is Brian Maddy. Joe Nelson invited me to this group and
> suggested I introduce myself.
> 
> I'm a software developer and have been an independent contractor since
> about 2008. I've worked with everything from Fortune 50 companies down
> to numerous startups. I'm a big fan of functional programming, but am
> always interested in learning new ideas (in the functional world or
> elsewhere). Right now I'm doing bill processing stuff in Clojure. Some
> of my recent interests have included Prolog, rules engines, forward vs
> backward chaining, temporal and bi-temporal databases, incremental
> computation, metaheuristics, and other types of machine learning. That
> said, I'm still a novice with many of those.
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone!
> 
> Cheers,
> Brian
> 

Hello Brian, and welcome!

-- 
Best regards,
Mauricio ("mxu") Uribe


From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Thu Feb 20 00:18:23 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 00:18:23 +0000
Subject: Hi, I'm Brian.
In-Reply-To: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPe8GHKdsDgO40uHRU1OySQRWSd_0HZdguZs9sn-S0oZv2WPYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eP-cd1E0dGkQ5iNOEVg4gjYfaDhrAQ_a0BwxtZxSdk5B-Di8z06nb9ezuWhGg4tA00EJeaY8Lyyj6CV5LG-3fu6Mi2x1GgQ_RcQVN1D1teM=@protonmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Welcome Brian!

> Hello all,
>
> My name is Brian Maddy. Joe Nelson invited me to this group and
> suggested I introduce myself.
>
> I'm a software developer and have been an independent contractor since
> about 2008. I've worked with everything from Fortune 50 companies down
> to numerous startups. I'm a big fan of functional programming, but am
> always interested in learning new ideas (in the functional world or
> elsewhere). Right now I'm doing bill processing stuff in Clojure. Some
> of my recent interests have included Prolog, rules engines, forward vs
> backward chaining, temporal and bi-temporal databases, incremental
> computation, metaheuristics, and other types of machine learning. That
> said, I'm still a novice with many of those.
>
> I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone!
>
> Cheers,
> Brian


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From joe at begriffs.com  Thu Feb 20 02:35:39 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 20:35:39 -0600
Subject: Updated group wiki
Message-ID: <20200220023539.ynpzlrambtkif7xx@begriffs.com>

I updated the "wiki" for our shared server:
http://frostbyte.cc/wiki.txt

Just a heads up for new users that it exists, and that you can edit it
too when you get SSH access to the server. (Instructions for getting
access are in the wiki itself of course.)

From dave at 19a6.net  Sun Feb 23 21:57:45 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 15:57:45 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
Message-ID: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>

Greetings. I've set up a blog aggregator at
http://frostbyte.cc/blog.html. Joe tracked down a handful of RSS feeds
to seed it with. If you would like to add your feed, send us your feed's
URL.

The config and templates are editable by the webauthor group.  For those
with VPS access, you can see the configuration details at
http://frostbyte.cc/wiki.txt.

Ironically, the feed aggregator does not create a feed of its own.
However, it does provide a list of its feeds at the bottom of the page.

From eric at faehnri.ch  Mon Feb 24 12:42:21 2020
From: eric at faehnri.ch (Eric Faehnrich)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:42:21 -0500
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
Message-ID: <511df45a-e560-75e3-35b1-00e502c829da@faehnri.ch>

Oh hey my site is already on there. Thanks!

And thanks for putting this together, I'll be putting these others in my
RSS reader.

Knowing people actually read my site maybe I need to write more now haha.


From mxu at uribe.cc  Mon Feb 24 14:38:36 2020
From: mxu at uribe.cc (Mauricio Uribe)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:38:36 -0500
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <511df45a-e560-75e3-35b1-00e502c829da@faehnri.ch>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <511df45a-e560-75e3-35b1-00e502c829da@faehnri.ch>
Message-ID: <8057007d-ff75-01b7-cd74-868ac7ba7974@uribe.cc>

On 2/24/20 7:42 AM, Eric Faehnrich wrote:
> Oh hey my site is already on there. Thanks!
> 
> And thanks for putting this together, I'll be putting these others in my
> RSS reader.
> 
> Knowing people actually read my site maybe I need to write more now haha.
> 
I could not agree more with Eric's sentiment!  Thanks for doing this 
Dave and Joe!

-- 
Best regards,
Mauricio "mxu" Uribe
mxu at uribe.cc

From joe at begriffs.com  Mon Feb 24 23:58:06 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:58:06 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
Message-ID: <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>

Dave Bucklin wrote:
> Greetings. I've set up a blog aggregator at
> http://frostbyte.cc/blog.html

It's cool to see how active list members are with writing. Great that
this aggregation requires no extra work on our part, too. Dave
configured it to auto-update.

Anyway, those blogs are from a small fraction of people on the list. I
added just the feeds that were easy for me to find. If you have a feed
on your blog, please let us know and we'll add you!

From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Tue Feb 25 00:59:47 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:59:47 +0000
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
Message-ID: <a6953aee-95e9-7c4d-428c-7b6fa24be7c3@protonmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

This is definitely going to get me to write more on my blog if I know 
people are reading it. Want to get another post nailed out before I put 
it in the aggregator.

On 2/23/20 3:57 PM, Dave Bucklin wrote:
> Greetings. I've set up a blog aggregator at
> http://frostbyte.cc/blog.html. Joe tracked down a handful of RSS feeds
> to seed it with. If you would like to add your feed, send us your feed's
> URL.
>
> The config and templates are editable by the webauthor group.  For those
> with VPS access, you can see the configuration details at
> http://frostbyte.cc/wiki.txt.
>
> Ironically, the feed aggregator does not create a feed of its own.
> However, it does provide a list of its feeds at the bottom of the page.

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From forest.n.johnson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 25 01:13:24 2020
From: forest.n.johnson at gmail.com (Forest Johnson)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 19:13:24 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <CAGgjgQw9yWAqjnL_w=G3NJRFyScbSsB03hLZ0SVGMPZn9EUK0w@mail.gmail.com>

https://sequentialread.com/rss/

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:58 PM Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>
> Dave Bucklin wrote:
> > Greetings. I've set up a blog aggregator at
> > http://frostbyte.cc/blog.html
>
> It's cool to see how active list members are with writing. Great that
> this aggregation requires no extra work on our part, too. Dave
> configured it to auto-update.
>
> Anyway, those blogs are from a small fraction of people on the list. I
> added just the feeds that were easy for me to find. If you have a feed
> on your blog, please let us know and we'll add you!

From dave at 19a6.net  Tue Feb 25 01:24:57 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 19:24:57 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <CAGgjgQw9yWAqjnL_w=G3NJRFyScbSsB03hLZ0SVGMPZn9EUK0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
 <CAGgjgQw9yWAqjnL_w=G3NJRFyScbSsB03hLZ0SVGMPZn9EUK0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200225012457.GA25577@19a6.tech>

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 07:13:24PM -0600, Forest Johnson wrote:
> https://sequentialread.com/rss/

Added!

From joe at begriffs.com  Tue Feb 25 06:04:24 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:04:24 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <8815997f-8345-4da9-8dd7-270ea4209f80@protonmail.com>
References: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
 <8815997f-8345-4da9-8dd7-270ea4209f80@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200225060424.4renjeu2iysj3mgq@begriffs.com>

Noel Miller wrote:
> The way I found this group is through meetup. (and was a bit of a rabbit 
> hole when I found it) We shouldn't run our entire infrastructure off of 
> it, but we should at the very least advertise on there and point people 
> in the right direction.

It's a tough call. Meetup brings cool people like you, but also IMHO
some real randos. Some people go to meetups seemingly because they're
bored rather than out of any real interest or follow-through about the
topic of the group.

Are there other models we could use to grow the group? Like personally
inviting people you know and trust?

> I don't like using a space that is meant for something else in the case 
> of the tcmaker and tchacknight spaces (I wouldn't be able to make it to 
> tchacknight anyway, closes too early).

I don't feel like it would be abusing tchacknight to join their event,
as long as we gave them advance notice about the number of people. They
advertise publicly and want people to attend. However like you said the
hours aren't great.

> I'm not opposed having one of us reach out to TCMaker and see if we
> could get something on their calendar if we feel that is a good
> option.

If we schedule tcmaker for a non-Wednesday, then we need a member to
open the door and be there to host. Perhaps Peter is willing to do that?

From joe at begriffs.com  Tue Feb 25 06:17:05 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:17:05 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <CC94F7C0-3FCF-460F-B6CB-C3DB40E0FD6C@19a6.net>
References: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
 <CC94F7C0-3FCF-460F-B6CB-C3DB40E0FD6C@19a6.net>
Message-ID: <20200225061705.uothgn6ux73ojaxp@begriffs.com>

Dave Bucklin wrote:
> If you are aware of a restaurant or cafe that is large enough and
> usually empty at a given time of day, it might be a candidate. There
> are many good restaurants in Minneapolis that are always full. One
> could infer that there are also some crappy restaurants that are
> always empty, especially on off-hours.

Two ideas along those lines:

* The community room at Wedge Table. I think it would be free of charge
  for a group like us which is not a commercial venture. It's open
  until 9:00pm. https://tccp.coop/community-room/
* Peace Coffee community room. Minimum $25 group purchase. Open until
  7:45pm. https://www.peacecoffee.com/learn/community/wonderland-park-community-room/

From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Tue Feb 25 06:22:35 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 06:22:35 +0000
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <20200225061705.uothgn6ux73ojaxp@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
 <CC94F7C0-3FCF-460F-B6CB-C3DB40E0FD6C@19a6.net>
 <20200225061705.uothgn6ux73ojaxp@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <13e441f2-60c1-5c2f-5b4b-c4a21fe827ad@protonmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

> Dave Bucklin wrote:
>> If you are aware of a restaurant or cafe that is large enough and
>> usually empty at a given time of day, it might be a candidate. There
>> are many good restaurants in Minneapolis that are always full. One
>> could infer that there are also some crappy restaurants that are
>> always empty, especially on off-hours.
> Two ideas along those lines:
>
> * The community room at Wedge Table. I think it would be free of charge
>    for a group like us which is not a commercial venture. It's open
>    until 9:00pm. https://tccp.coop/community-room/
> * Peace Coffee community room. Minimum $25 group purchase. Open until
>    7:45pm. https://www.peacecoffee.com/learn/community/wonderland-park-community-room/
I have personally been to the wedge for a meetup and it's a nice space. 
I don't have any experience with Peace Coffee, though the hours would be 
not so great for me as I work until 6PM.

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27srXWDxi47mi+PrD0S8lFxAPuXLtfxZVVfU
=xfSI
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From joe at begriffs.com  Tue Feb 25 06:26:02 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:26:02 -0600
Subject: Co-working space - Summary and proposal
In-Reply-To: <197411a20de11927908da3c6b375241f8dff64f1.camel@grunch.org>
References: <20200212042220.fblnk2ncgkalykzz@begriffs.com>
 <20200214015327.q6gdzufv76aufvv7@begriffs.com>
 <197411a20de11927908da3c6b375241f8dff64f1.camel@grunch.org>
Message-ID: <20200225062602.bw7qube2wcl7ep4x@begriffs.com>

> > Suggestion
> > ----------
> > ...
> > Does this sound like the right direction?

David Klann wrote:
> This sounds like a reasonable way to get started. Thanks for the
> on-going conversation!

Yes we came up with a lot of good ideas. Glad to hear people are into
it. I guess maybe we wait now and see if Cyberia or Assembly come up
with something. I know they're also looking into the
coworking/hackerspace thing.

From hello at robertdherb.com  Tue Feb 25 14:20:55 2020
From: hello at robertdherb.com (Robbie H)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:20:55 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <20200225082055.061d47b2@phoebe.vault-423.qualityretro.net>

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:58:06 -0600
Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:

> Anyway, those blogs are from a small fraction of people on the list. I
> added just the feeds that were easy for me to find. If you have a feed
> on your blog, please let us know and we'll add you!

I suppose I'll have to actually get around to setting up a feed on my
site!

From chris at mikk.net  Tue Feb 25 15:24:50 2020
From: chris at mikk.net (Chris Mikkelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:24:50 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <20200225061705.uothgn6ux73ojaxp@begriffs.com>
References: <20200210015629.d76v7zipffu7jjeu@begriffs.com>
 <CC94F7C0-3FCF-460F-B6CB-C3DB40E0FD6C@19a6.net>
 <20200225061705.uothgn6ux73ojaxp@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <20200225152450.GC49425@mikk.net>

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 12:17:05AM -0600, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Dave Bucklin wrote:
> > If you are aware of a restaurant or cafe that is large enough and
> > usually empty at a given time of day, it might be a candidate. There
> > are many good restaurants in Minneapolis that are always full. One
> > could infer that there are also some crappy restaurants that are
> > always empty, especially on off-hours.
> 
> Two ideas along those lines:
> 
> * The community room at Wedge Table. I think it would be free of charge
>   for a group like us which is not a commercial venture. It's open
>   until 9:00pm. https://tccp.coop/community-room/
> * Peace Coffee community room. Minimum $25 group purchase. Open until
>   7:45pm. https://www.peacecoffee.com/learn/community/wonderland-park-community-room/

I'd add Wilde Cafe and Spirits (formerly Wilde Roast)
which has a really nice meeting room. My wife used to
organize gatherings there (and found them pleasant to
work with), and DC612 also uses it.

Their website lists a $500 minimum for four hours,
which is higher than I remember but easily doable if we
have around 10 folks there to eat and drink.

-- 
Chris Mikkelson  | That is a form of errant pedantry up with which
chris at mikk.net   | I will not put. 
                 | 			-- Winston Churchill

From nicholasdrozd at gmail.com  Wed Feb 26 01:38:41 2020
From: nicholasdrozd at gmail.com (Nicholas Drozd)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 19:38:41 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200225012457.GA25577@19a6.tech>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
 <CAGgjgQw9yWAqjnL_w=G3NJRFyScbSsB03hLZ0SVGMPZn9EUK0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200225012457.GA25577@19a6.tech>
Message-ID: <CABAiW0rKVNEGfEHcGLwTodX-V8DrJavVC-A-L9bwMeDR-Xi+cg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the feed for mine: https://nickdrozd.github.io/feed.xml

I think it works?

From joe at begriffs.com  Wed Feb 26 03:38:14 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 21:38:14 -0600
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
Message-ID: <20200226033814.halc42j3sy6frihx@begriffs.com>

Had an idea that might be a lot of fun. Rather than going to a certain
building, what about a huge hack night on frostbyte.cc?

We could set up IRC and Mumble servers for the night. At 6:00 we'd all
sign into IRC and pitch ideas. Then smaller groups could form around
each project, creating Mumble rooms for project voice chats.  Project
leaders would create shared terminal sessions with `tmux -S
/tmp/proj-name` and anyone interested could join with `tmux -S
/tmp/proj-name attach`.

People could even browse the projects in action, tuning in to whatever
voice chats and terminal sessions seem interesting. Make it a kind of
spectator thing.

Want to try it next week? Over the weekend I could set up and test IRC
and Mumble on there, and add instructions to our "wiki" for how to
connect.

From dklann at grunch.org  Wed Feb 26 16:00:07 2020
From: dklann at grunch.org (David Klann)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:00:07 -0600
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
In-Reply-To: <20200226033814.halc42j3sy6frihx@begriffs.com>
References: <20200226033814.halc42j3sy6frihx@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <830f52c059033fc23ea20b8cd3da047b58ff29e9.camel@grunch.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hi Joe,
On Tue, 2020-02-25 at 21:38 -0600, you wrote:
> Had an idea that might be a lot of fun. Rather than going to a certain
> building, what about a huge hack night on frostbyte.cc?
> 

This works for me. It mitigates my "geographically challenged", um, situation.

> We could set up IRC and Mumble servers for the night. At 6:00 we'd all
> sign into IRC and pitch ideas. Then smaller groups could form around
> each project, creating Mumble rooms for project voice chats.  Project
> leaders would create shared terminal sessions with `tmux -S
> /tmp/proj-name` and anyone interested could join with `tmux -S
> /tmp/proj-name attach`.
> 
> People could even browse the projects in action, tuning in to whatever
> voice chats and terminal sessions seem interesting. Make it a kind of
> spectator thing.
> 
> Want to try it next week? Over the weekend I could set up and test IRC
> and Mumble on there, and add instructions to our "wiki" for how to
> connect.

Though it's the height of FIRST Robotics(R) build season, I'd be up for it
next week. Name the day! 

  ~David
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From dave at 19a6.net  Wed Feb 26 22:49:06 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:49:06 -0800
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <CABAiW0rKVNEGfEHcGLwTodX-V8DrJavVC-A-L9bwMeDR-Xi+cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <20200224235806.hxwaabruoexugjge@begriffs.com>
 <CAGgjgQw9yWAqjnL_w=G3NJRFyScbSsB03hLZ0SVGMPZn9EUK0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200225012457.GA25577@19a6.tech>
 <CABAiW0rKVNEGfEHcGLwTodX-V8DrJavVC-A-L9bwMeDR-Xi+cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D12A29B4-7220-4B83-AD44-FC2BE62A333E@19a6.net>

Added!

On February 25, 2020 5:38:41 PM PST, Nicholas Drozd <nicholasdrozd at gmail.com> wrote:
>Here's the feed for mine: https://nickdrozd.github.io/feed.xml
>
>I think it works?

From joe at begriffs.com  Fri Feb 28 01:56:50 2020
From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:56:50 -0600
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
In-Reply-To: <830f52c059033fc23ea20b8cd3da047b58ff29e9.camel@grunch.org>
References: <20200226033814.halc42j3sy6frihx@begriffs.com>
 <830f52c059033fc23ea20b8cd3da047b58ff29e9.camel@grunch.org>
Message-ID: <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>

*crickets*  *crickets*

Well, we got one person interested.

Nobody else wants to grab a surfboard and travel on the information
superhighway? No fans of cyberspace??

From j3s at c3f.net  Fri Feb 28 02:34:17 2020
From: j3s at c3f.net (j3s)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:34:17 -0600
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
In-Reply-To: <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
References: <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <30612BF7-9A1C-4AAD-902F-A3987B16157C@c3f.net>


> On Feb 27, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
> 
> ?*crickets*  *crickets*
> 
> Well, we got one person interested.
> 
> Nobody else wants to grab a surfboard and travel on the information
> superhighway? No fans of cyberspace??

As a longtime lover of cyberspace, I?m very in to this idea. Remote distributed work is where I thrive.

However, the whole idea pitch and project group component sounds a bit... exhausting to me? Especially after a day at the office. I?d like to work on my own projects and chat casually with you fine folks while I fade in and out, having dinner and tea and such.

Maybe more of a conversationy casual vibe? What do you think?

From j3s at c3f.net  Fri Feb 28 02:40:54 2020
From: j3s at c3f.net (j3s)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:40:54 -0600
Subject: Domestic Computing
In-Reply-To: <4B06E286-C503-41BE-B521-A32D71C5060A@19a6.net>
References: <4B06E286-C503-41BE-B521-A32D71C5060A@19a6.net>
Message-ID: <407C2A4A-AABD-43A3-BCCA-5630F57BC516@c3f.net>


> Given the prevalence of high tech in our lives, I think it's important to develop a competency that isn't necessarily driven by  the need to make money. 

This drives at what people find meaningful, I think. I find it meaningful to immerse myself in a project or two over a weekend, with the hope that releasing the code publicly will genuinely help other people.

I feel like software is unique in that the creation can be shared universally and without restraint, but with big corps printing money off the backs of free software people, it also feels really scummy sometimes.

I think that there?s a sense of magic when a group can come together and do something selflessly. Without trying to sound preachy, it?s one of the reasons I live my life the way I do. I like sharing that joy with people, and showing them for the first time that tech isn?t scary - and it?s not about money. It?s cool and awesome and very, very human.

From dave at 19a6.net  Fri Feb 28 17:07:30 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:07:30 -0800
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
In-Reply-To: <30612BF7-9A1C-4AAD-902F-A3987B16157C@c3f.net>
References: <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
 <30612BF7-9A1C-4AAD-902F-A3987B16157C@c3f.net>
Message-ID: <8177E45F-A60D-4B1F-B7F0-78D60068B80E@19a6.net>



On February 27, 2020 6:34:17 PM PST, j3s <j3s at c3f.net> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?*crickets*  *crickets*
>> 
>> Well, we got one person interested.
>> 
>> Nobody else wants to grab a surfboard and travel on the information
>> superhighway? No fans of cyberspace??
>
>As a longtime lover of cyberspace, I?m very in to this idea. Remote
>distributed work is where I thrive.
>
>However, the whole idea pitch and project group component sounds a
>bit... exhausting to me? Especially after a day at the office. I?d like
>to work on my own projects and chat casually with you fine folks while
>I fade in and out, having dinner and tea and such.
>
>Maybe more of a conversationy casual vibe? What do you think?

This sounds achievable to me. Set a time and a communication method and let things happen organically. 

We might also want some kind of project board where folks have the option to declare what they are working on and indicate how to participate/observe. It could be just a text file.

I wonder if it's preferable to have a large meeting window (e.g. noon to midnight) or a short one (e.g. 6 to 9). I imagine the former would be more convenient, and the latter would concentrate participation during the window. Maybe a 6-to-whenever type of approach would be enough. We've used Doodle in the past to align on date and time. I'm open to using that again or an alternative.

I use Ono-Sendai, BTW.

 

From nicholasdrozd at gmail.com  Fri Feb 28 21:07:34 2020
From: nicholasdrozd at gmail.com (Nicholas Drozd)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:07:34 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
Message-ID: <CABAiW0qA3CoOU8kdNMOic4GhdqSSQ=d5BqjY5fQUOmSx9tkXdA@mail.gmail.com>

How about the Mall of America food court? Erik and I have been meeting
up there to hack for a while now, and it's a nicer space than you
might think.

Pros:

- Free
- Big tables with outlets
- Shake Shack, and many other food options
- Great lighting during the daytime (is the group open to meeting on a
weekend morning or afternoon???)
- Light rail access
- Bear witness to the dying gasps of American mall culture
- Roller coasters

Cons:

- No privacy
- Unsuitable for hardware hacking (maybe?)

From chris at sencjw.com  Fri Feb 28 22:19:26 2020
From: chris at sencjw.com (Chris Wilson)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:19:26 -0600
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
In-Reply-To: <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
References: <20200226033814.halc42j3sy6frihx@begriffs.com>
 <830f52c059033fc23ea20b8cd3da047b58ff29e9.camel@grunch.org>
 <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <08e0f74f-e2ec-420c-9e24-03e16dc841d5@www.fastmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Joe Nelson wrote:
> Nobody else wants to grab a surfboard and travel on the information
> superhighway? No fans of cyberspace??

Well, when you put it that way. I'm in.

From noelmiller at protonmail.com  Fri Feb 28 22:23:41 2020
From: noelmiller at protonmail.com (Noel Miller)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:23:41 +0000
Subject: What if our next meeting was ...virtual?
In-Reply-To: <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
References: <20200226033814.halc42j3sy6frihx@begriffs.com>
 <830f52c059033fc23ea20b8cd3da047b58ff29e9.camel@grunch.org>
 <20200228015650.ih4xj7jzardr6lrh@begriffs.com>
Message-ID: <87blpi4ahk.fsf@desktop.henrymillerfrazier.lan>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


Joe Nelson <joe at begriffs.com> writes:

> *crickets*  *crickets*
>
> Well, we got one person interested.
>
> Nobody else wants to grab a surfboard and travel on the 
> information
> superhighway? No fans of cyberspace??

I find a lot of value with the in person meetings rather than 
online
hackfests. While it could work, I think a lot of people feel the 
same
way as I do. If it's the only option we have due to issues with 
finding
a space, just name a day and I'm sure some people (myself 
included) might show up.

--
Noel Miller
noelmiller at protonmail.com
https://noel.fyi

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From nicholasdrozd at gmail.com  Sat Feb 29 17:48:27 2020
From: nicholasdrozd at gmail.com (Nicholas Drozd)
Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:48:27 -0600
Subject: Interim meetup location
In-Reply-To: <CABAiW0qA3CoOU8kdNMOic4GhdqSSQ=d5BqjY5fQUOmSx9tkXdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABAiW0qA3CoOU8kdNMOic4GhdqSSQ=d5BqjY5fQUOmSx9tkXdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABAiW0okKR6VfhVfUkYK75VqTqSxoLBhrMPN4f1HZFizwTJorg@mail.gmail.com>

starl3ss pointed out that the monthly meeting for 2600: The Hacker
Quarterly also takes place at the mall (see
https://www.2600.com/meetings/mtg.html).
I don't think our meeting needs to interact with theirs, but it does
serve as some proof that the mall is a plausible meeting space.

(Does anyone from their group want to join our group? Lots of overlap
I would think.)


On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 3:07 PM Nicholas Drozd <nicholasdrozd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How about the Mall of America food court? Erik and I have been meeting
> up there to hack for a while now, and it's a nicer space than you
> might think.
>
> Pros:
>
> - Free
> - Big tables with outlets
> - Shake Shack, and many other food options
> - Great lighting during the daytime (is the group open to meeting on a
> weekend morning or afternoon???)
> - Light rail access
> - Bear witness to the dying gasps of American mall culture
> - Roller coasters
>
> Cons:
>
> - No privacy
> - Unsuitable for hardware hacking (maybe?)

From j3s at c3f.net  Sat Feb 29 22:16:34 2020
From: j3s at c3f.net (Jesse Olson)
Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 16:16:34 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
Message-ID: <20200229221634.GD15155@nostromo.arkham.city>

On 2020-02-23  3:57 PM, Dave Bucklin wrote:
> If you would like to add your feed, send us your feed's URL.

Hi Dave, thanks a lot for doing this!

My previous email didn't go through properly, so I'm re-sending it for
the consistency of the archive.

Could you please add Cyberia's blog to the list?

https://cyberia.club/blog/blog.xml

From dave at 19a6.net  Sat Feb 29 23:59:25 2020
From: dave at 19a6.net (Dave Bucklin)
Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:59:25 -0600
Subject: Blog Aggregator and You Can, Too
In-Reply-To: <20200229221634.GD15155@nostromo.arkham.city>
References: <20200223215745.GA8799@19a6.tech>
 <20200229221634.GD15155@nostromo.arkham.city>
Message-ID: <20200229235925.GB2995@19a6.tech>

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 04:16:34PM -0600, Jesse Olson wrote:
> On 2020-02-23  3:57 PM, Dave Bucklin wrote:
> > If you would like to add your feed, send us your feed's URL.
> 
> Hi Dave, thanks a lot for doing this!
> 
> My previous email didn't go through properly, so I'm re-sending it for
> the consistency of the archive.
> 
> Could you please add Cyberia's blog to the list?
> 
> https://cyberia.club/blog/blog.xml

Added!