From joe at begriffs.com Thu Nov 1 05:39:34 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 00:39:34 -0500 Subject: OpenBSD Upgrade GtG? In-Reply-To: <20181031100343.cknnbg2lrqwda6dl@19a6.tech> References: <20181024000713.GA69549@begriffs.com> <20181024021624.zxfekr5tedizjb52@19a6.tech> <20181024024042.GA79416@begriffs.com> <20181024032252.GA1815@nobelware.com> <20181024223640.q6vhh27dkyltka74@19a6.tech> <20181030041401.GC31915@begriffs.com> <20181030122506.op73zyphjhigor5g@19a6.tech> <20181031042703.GB9674@begriffs.com> <20181031100343.cknnbg2lrqwda6dl@19a6.tech> Message-ID: <20181101053934.GA69418@begriffs.com> > > Maybe one of you guys can handle providing the food this time? > I can make that happen. Thank you, appreciate it. > Do you have any recommendations on where to get pizza I used https://www.parkwaypizzamn.com and liked it OK. > and how much to get? The tricky step is to estimate how many people will attend, and that's why I always send out an email to ask. It's a little simpler now that our group is smaller because you can count on a "yes" RSVP more than you could on meetup.com. Next, take your estimate and plug it into the amazing pizza calculator: https://calculate-this.com/how-many-pizzas-buy-calculator That site has turned it into a bit of a science, even helping determine what toppings to get. It asks you what size of pizzas to calculate, and for reference I always ordered the large size for our past meetings. For beverages I think it's fun to have beer at an event like this, but it's a good idea to provide bottled water as well for people who aren't into the beer thing. I don't know how good the tap water is in the hack factory, it has always seemed a bit industrial to me, hence the bottled water. I can bring paper plates and napkins. From kurtis at riseup.net Thu Nov 1 05:58:00 2018 From: kurtis at riseup.net (kurtis) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 05:58:00 +0000 Subject: OpenBSD Upgrade GtG? In-Reply-To: <20181101053934.GA69418@begriffs.com> References: <20181024000713.GA69549@begriffs.com> <20181024021624.zxfekr5tedizjb52@19a6.tech> <20181024024042.GA79416@begriffs.com> <20181024032252.GA1815@nobelware.com> <20181024223640.q6vhh27dkyltka74@19a6.tech> <20181030041401.GC31915@begriffs.com> <20181030122506.op73zyphjhigor5g@19a6.tech> <20181031042703.GB9674@begriffs.com> <20181031100343.cknnbg2lrqwda6dl@19a6.tech> <20181101053934.GA69418@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <2d59091b-1a20-2586-0df0-9e466130fe17@riseup.net> Joe Nelson:> The tricky step is to estimate how many people will attend, and that's > why I always send out an email to ask. It's a little simpler now that > our group is smaller because you can count on a "yes" RSVP more than you > could on meetup.com. Yeah, I'd recommend sending an email with a different subject about the meeting because I don't use any BSD distros, so I almost stopped reading this thread, but I would maybe come to a meeting about it since you guys don't meet super often and it'd be cool to learn a bit about OpenBSD. From samuel.stuewe at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 13:27:56 2018 From: samuel.stuewe at gmail.com (Sam Stuewe) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 08:27:56 -0500 Subject: OpenBSD Upgrade GtG? In-Reply-To: <20181101053934.GA69418@begriffs.com> References: <20181024000713.GA69549@begriffs.com> <20181024021624.zxfekr5tedizjb52@19a6.tech> <20181024024042.GA79416@begriffs.com> <20181024032252.GA1815@nobelware.com> <20181024223640.q6vhh27dkyltka74@19a6.tech> <20181030041401.GC31915@begriffs.com> <20181030122506.op73zyphjhigor5g@19a6.tech> <20181031042703.GB9674@begriffs.com> <20181031100343.cknnbg2lrqwda6dl@19a6.tech> <20181101053934.GA69418@begriffs.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/18, Joe Nelson wrote: > Next, take your estimate and plug it into the amazing pizza calculator: > https://calculate-this.com/how-many-pizzas-buy-calculator > That site has turned it into a bit of a science, even helping determine > what toppings to get. It asks you what size of pizzas to calculate, and > for reference I always ordered the large size for our past meetings. Please count me as a ?Big Eater? in that calculator. I will gladly throw in a few bucks to help cover the price! All the best, -Sam From dave.bucklin at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 21:28:34 2018 From: dave.bucklin at gmail.com (Dave Bucklin) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 15:28:34 -0600 Subject: Hack Factory Open House 11/7 Message-ID: <19B54B89-66DF-4FDB-9E5F-84D81F3850A7@gmail.com> Wednesday, 7-9PM at the Hack Factory, 3119 East 26th Street. Please RSVP if you plan to attend. So far, I have myself, Joe, Yo, Sam, Nicholas, Erik, and maybe Kurtis. From samuel.stuewe at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 21:33:37 2018 From: samuel.stuewe at gmail.com (Sam Stuewe) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 15:33:37 -0600 Subject: Hack Factory Open House 11/7 In-Reply-To: <19B54B89-66DF-4FDB-9E5F-84D81F3850A7@gmail.com> References: <19B54B89-66DF-4FDB-9E5F-84D81F3850A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am indeed planning to attend! All the best, -Sam On 11/5/18, Dave Bucklin wrote: > Wednesday, 7-9PM at the Hack Factory, 3119 East 26th Street. Please RSVP if > you plan to attend. So far, I have myself, Joe, Yo, Sam, Nicholas, Erik, and > maybe Kurtis. > From nompelis at nobelware.com Mon Nov 5 22:36:32 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 22:36:32 +0000 Subject: Hack Factory Open House 11/7 In-Reply-To: References: <19B54B89-66DF-4FDB-9E5F-84D81F3850A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181105223632.GA28720@nobelware.com> I will be attending. Sorry that I missed the request to RSVP. From nompelis at nobelware.com Tue Nov 6 04:37:45 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:37:45 +0000 Subject: OpenSSL and certificates for our group's work Message-ID: <20181106043745.GA9460@nobelware.com> I have been doing some reading, especially after Tim's suggestions on looking into SNI for my webserver's certificates, etc, etc. As a result, I have started to look a lot into OpenSSL. And in fact, for the first time I started to program with it (connecting an SSL layer over sockets that do web fetches). While reading more about OpenSSL, I ran across this: https://www.feistyduck.com/library/openssl%2dcookbook/online/ch-openssl.html It is far from a good book, but the narration of the examples is very good for somebody who knows what they are looking for. But the reason I am sending this link to the list is to propose that we setup our VPS to also act as a Certificate Authority (CA). To clarify, this is solely for the purpose of our group having certificate validation for testing purposes and for only our purposes. If you scroll to about 4/5 of the this link, you will find that it is possible, but it involves some busy work periodically. Think about if this adds usefulness and we will talk about it at the HackFactory on Wed. IN From dave.bucklin at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 18:35:06 2018 From: dave.bucklin at gmail.com (Dave Bucklin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 12:35:06 -0600 Subject: Hack Factory Open House 11/7 In-Reply-To: <20181105223632.GA28720@nobelware.com> References: <19B54B89-66DF-4FDB-9E5F-84D81F3850A7@gmail.com> <20181105223632.GA28720@nobelware.com> Message-ID: Slight change of plans. The classroom at the Hack Factory is being remodeled and it's not a good place to hang out. I made a 7PM reservation for seven at Parkway Pizza just down the road, 4359 Minnehaha Ave. See you there. Can someone bring one of those AC power distributor thingies? From joe at begriffs.com Wed Nov 7 22:46:45 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 16:46:45 -0600 Subject: Using valgrind Message-ID: <20181107224645.GA60437@begriffs.com> I was doing a K&R exercise and noticed a place in the code that might have a small memory leak. This section https://github.com/begriffs/kr/blob/master/j-symbols.c#L35-L37 returns NULL if either a structure or a string fail to be allocated. However if the structure succeeded and strdup failed then it would never free the structure. Rather than fix it and move on, I wondered if it would be a good opportunity to learn some tooling. Maybe http://valgrind.org could detect the error. Have any of you used Valgrind before? From nompelis at nobelware.com Wed Nov 7 23:28:06 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:28:06 +0000 Subject: Using valgrind In-Reply-To: <20181107224645.GA60437@begriffs.com> References: <20181107224645.GA60437@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181107232806.GA8323@nobelware.com> I have used Valgrid. It is _great_ but you need to know what you are doing in order to (a) not get confused by the times that things fail spectacularly and in a cascading manner, and (b) to be able to collect the right information. I have used it in parallel (distributed / separate memory space per process) applications, which is what I build at work. Basically, you executa Valgrind, even in parallel, which jails the process in a monitored memory space, and then injects diagnostics. It is a lot like using a debugger or disassembler. My adviser's eldest daughter just finished her CS degree at Carnegie Mellon (possibly the best CS dept. in the country). For their programming assignments, they had to run them through Valgrid and deliver the output. Personally, I do not use Valgrid unless I am handed a piece of code that I do not know what it does and that obviously has problems, like seg-faults or un-expected behavriou. And even this case is rare. But I am telling you that it is very useful for such tasks. Here are the environment modules on my desktop: opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-1.8.0 opt_mach4_Vrui opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-1.8.0_hdf5-1.8.14 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-1.8.0_parmetis-4.0.3_i32r32 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-1.8.0_parmetis-4.0.3_i32r32_HACK opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-1.8.0_parmetis-4.0.3_i64r64 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-2.0.1 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-2.0.1_hdf5-1.8.14 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-2.0.1_parmetis-4.0.3_i64r64 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-2.0.1_petsc-3.6.4 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-2.0.1_valgrind-3.12.0 opt_gcc_mach29_ompi-2.0.1_valgrind-3.12.0_petsc-3.6.4 opt_gcc_mach29_Wine opt_gcc_mach29_Wine64 opt_gcc_valgrid-3.12.0 opt_mach4_pgi-15.10_OpenMPI-1.10.1_hdf5-1.8.14 opt_mach4_pgi-15.10_OpenMPI-1.10.1_hdf5-1.8.14f2003 opt_mach4_pgi-15.10_OpenMPI-1.10.1_parmetis-4.0.3 opt_mach4_pgi-15.10_OpenMPI-1.10.1_parmetis-4.0.3_64 opt_mach4_pgi-15.10_OpenMPI-1.10.1_petsc-3.6.4 Notice how I have some software stacks built with Valgrind in them, like the parallel execution and parallelization libraries (OpenMPI "ompi"). We can talk about it at the meetup. From nompelis at nobelware.com Thu Nov 8 06:12:01 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:12:01 +0000 Subject: Hack Factory Open House 11/7 In-Reply-To: References: <19B54B89-66DF-4FDB-9E5F-84D81F3850A7@gmail.com> <20181105223632.GA28720@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20181108061201.GB22534@nobelware.com> That was fun guys. Good to see everyone. The other person I was forgetting was Paul, who lives a little farther away. What happened to him? Also, I logged into our VPS and it appears to be running 6.4 now, but no httpd. Sounds like Joe and Dave have failed me again. (Now picture them standing in front of me, their necks are being constricted by an invisible "force," then they drop dead, and I walk past them to report to the Emperor that I am taking charge of the situation...) Will get you the solution tomorrow. Looks like Erik has a login now. Nick and Sam will have to send SSH keys to Dave. Nick, 'ssh-keygen --help' for the quick version. Make some trials and see what happens. Clean up the ~/.ssh/ directory if things look strange and start from scratch. When you are done, make use of those keys: 'cp .ssh/id_rsa .ssh/identity' 'cp .ssh/id_rsa.pub .ssh/authorized_keys' You can concatenate as many public keys as you want to the authorized keys, so that you can log in the system with multiple identities (should you have any, which you appear to not have). Send the "authorized_keys" to Dave and that will do it. Let him know what login name you would like and if you want the "in real life" displayed with your real name. Talk later. IN From dave.bucklin at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 09:59:47 2018 From: dave.bucklin at gmail.com (Dave Bucklin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:59:47 -0600 Subject: Web Server Fixed Message-ID: <20181108095947.bftczqgdn3wjrwvy@19a6.tech> I noticed the following in /var/log/messages Nov 7 20:46:36 hh httpd[44051]: /etc/httpd.conf:9: server "frostbyte.cc" defined twice Nov 7 20:47:28 hh httpd[25088]: /etc/httpd.conf:9: server "frostbyte.cc" defined twice Looking at /etc/httpd.conf, I noticed that there were two listen directives. # $OpenBSD: httpd.conf,v 1.18 2018/03/23 11:36:41 florian Exp $ server "frostbyte.cc" { listen on * port 80 listen on :: port 80 location "*" { root "/frostbyte" } } I commented out the second one and it starts up, now. root at hh:/var/log#rcctl start httpd httpd(ok) The man page for httpd.conf says that the listen directive can be specified multiple times. > listen on address [tls] port number > Set the listen address and port. This statement can be specified > multiple times. That same man page on address values: > Within the sections, a host address can be specified by IPv4 address, > IPv6 address, interface name, interface group, or DNS hostname. If the > address is an interface name, httpd(8) will look up the first IPv4 > address and any other IPv4 and IPv6 addresses of the specified network > interface. If `*' is given as an address, httpd(8) will listen on all > IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. 0.0.0.0 means to listen on all IPv4 addresses > and :: all IPv6 addresses. A port can be specified by number or name. > The port name to number mappings are found in the file /etc/services; > see services(5) for details. My guess is that an address of '*' already includes the ipv6 wildcard '::', and httpd didn't like having both of them in there.. From nompelis at nobelware.com Thu Nov 8 15:49:21 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:49:21 +0000 Subject: Web Server Fixed In-Reply-To: <20181108095947.bftczqgdn3wjrwvy@19a6.tech> References: <20181108095947.bftczqgdn3wjrwvy@19a6.tech> Message-ID: <20181108154921.GA12154@nobelware.com> Yup. The weirdness... Both IPv6 and IPv4 look like they are listening: hh:nompelis {107} netstat -p tcp -a Active Internet connections (including servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address (state) tcp 0 0 108.61.242.14.vu.6667 65-128-8-64.mpls.52267 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 52 108.61.242.14.vu.ssh iznogoud.nobelwa.44305 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 *.www *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *.6667 *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *.ssh *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 localhost.smtp *.* LISTEN Active Internet connections (including servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address (state) tcp6 0 0 *.ssh *.* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 *.www *.* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 *.6667 *.* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 fe80::1%lo0.smtp *.* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 localhost.smtp *.* LISTEN hh:nompelis {108} Maybe we should beautify the web-page with some formatting and some CSS. I can offer a good sample from nobelware.com. Also, you guys look so cute... http://nobelware.com/~nompelis/hardcore_pizzanight.jpg (I like Parkway and their beer selection.) From joe at begriffs.com Fri Nov 9 00:19:40 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:19:40 -0600 Subject: Web Server Fixed In-Reply-To: <20181108095947.bftczqgdn3wjrwvy@19a6.tech> References: <20181108095947.bftczqgdn3wjrwvy@19a6.tech> Message-ID: <20181109001940.GA49542@begriffs.com> Nice debugging, good to see the web server back up! FYI today I made a general system change for security - https://www.openbsd.org/errata64.html There was a nasty Xorg vulnerability affecting Linux and BSDs that allows people to do things as root. The OpenBSD people didn't get notified about the problem until just after they released 6.4, so the fix wasn't part of the release. Anyway, I removed the setuid bit from /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg. Should have no negative impact on us because we don't use X on the server. From 42dch42 at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 01:17:20 2018 From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:17:20 -0600 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <5be8d4a2.1c69fb81.600c0.8046@mx.google.com> Hello all, Corresponded with Iznogood on tclug mailing list and he was kind enough to point me towards this list. Name: Harvey Dawes Work: Industrial sheet metal and hvac fabricator/installer Hobby: Poking and prodding under hood of operating systems mainly but really anything computer related that catches my interest. Meaning I am strictly an amateur. History: Running various linux and *BSD flavors since 2003 Current: Using FreeBSD 11.2 with TrueOS (FreeBSD derivative) and TinyCore linux installed for when I break things beyond the point of being able to boot. Don't know how much if any I'll be able to contribute but just scanning list archives has already been educational for me. thanks, harv From nompelis at nobelware.com Mon Nov 12 16:56:29 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:56:29 -0600 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <5be8d4a2.1c69fb81.600c0.8046@mx.google.com> References: <5be8d4a2.1c69fb81.600c0.8046@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20181112165629.GA6937@nobelware.com> Welcome harv. We are happy to have you around, sharing ideas, hacking, creating and learning with us. From salo at saloits.com Mon Nov 12 20:20:28 2018 From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:20:28 -0600 Subject: Usenet over ham radio? In-Reply-To: <20181030035652.GB31915@begriffs.com> References: <20181020155911.GA5778@mysterium.local> <20181030035652.GB31915@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <440e815e-1e07-da99-473d-35aac6cd9504@saloits.com> On 10/29/2018 10:56 PM, Joe Nelson wrote: > Can you recommend a cheap dedicated hardware TNC, or a well-regarded > software TNC? We would probably want to amplify the transmission at the > gateway too -- what's a good amplifier that is compatible with the TNC? I would look at soundcard modems, which use a PC soundcard to decode packet radio. There are a number of software packages out there, but they come and go as people gain and lose interest. One might Google [soundcard modem] and try playing with the different packages, probably starting with the free ones. You might also want to build a soundcard modem that isolates your PC from your radio. There are a ton of circuits available. I assume the current Handbook has at least one circuit. > Finally we'd want to put a UHF/VHF antenna on the roof at the Hack > Factory. They already have a RF antenna up there, so they should > be OK adding another. What do you think about the Comet GP-3? > http://www.cometantenna.com/amateur-radio/base-antennas/ba-dual-band/ I don't keep up on antennas enough to have a good opinion. I have found that some antennas requires more precise tuning than others. I think that you want an omnidirectional antenna that has as much gain (as you have height, perhaps), maybe covers most or all of the 2M band without tuning, doesn't require temperamental tuning, and is pretty weather resistant. (I assume that someone has enough test equipment to tune an antenna, but if the antenna really needs to be tuned in situ, that could be sort of a pain.) -tjs From dave.bucklin at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 22:57:56 2018 From: dave.bucklin at gmail.com (Dave Bucklin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:57:56 -0600 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <5be8d4a2.1c69fb81.600c0.8046@mx.google.com> References: <5be8d4a2.1c69fb81.600c0.8046@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20181112225756.zb3t5ugsvqbb5pca@19a6.tech> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:17:20PM -0600, harv wrote: > Hello all, > Corresponded with Iznogood on tclug mailing list and he was kind enough > to point me towards this list. > > Name: Harvey Dawes > Work: Industrial sheet metal and hvac fabricator/installer > Hobby: Poking and prodding under hood of operating systems mainly but > really anything computer related that catches my interest. > Meaning I am strictly an amateur. > History: Running various linux and *BSD flavors since 2003 > Current: Using FreeBSD 11.2 with TrueOS (FreeBSD derivative) and > TinyCore linux installed for when I break things beyond > the point of being able to boot. > > Don't know how much if any I'll be able to contribute but just scanning > list archives has already been educational for me. > > thanks, > harv Hello and welcome! You can learn a little more about the group at http://frostbyte.cc. Do you have any projects that you are working on right now? From chris at sencjw.com Tue Nov 13 01:04:19 2018 From: chris at sencjw.com (Chris Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:04:19 -0600 Subject: Hello! Message-ID: <20181113010419.GA57462@tha-tha.local> It looks like introductions are happening on the list right now and so I want to get in on that! My name is Chris Wilson and I live in Madison, WI. Joe Nelson pointed me to this list a little while back. I work as a software developer and have recently taken up electronics and ham radio as hobbies. In the summer, I like to get out sailing on Lake Mendota whenever possible. This past summer was when I finally bought a little 16ft. Catalina boat and, other than the horrendous work to get it out of the lake, it's a blast! Cheers, Chris From nompelis at nobelware.com Tue Nov 13 02:21:52 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 20:21:52 -0600 Subject: Hello! In-Reply-To: <20181113010419.GA57462@tha-tha.local> References: <20181113010419.GA57462@tha-tha.local> Message-ID: <27E75387-5B23-4775-B4F1-7A0A001105C7@nobelware.com> Welcome. I sail a Laser when I am not lazy. I used to race optimist as a kid and 420s as a teenager. From dave.bucklin at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 03:09:38 2018 From: dave.bucklin at gmail.com (Dave Bucklin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:09:38 -0600 Subject: Hello! In-Reply-To: <27E75387-5B23-4775-B4F1-7A0A001105C7@nobelware.com> References: <20181113010419.GA57462@tha-tha.local> <27E75387-5B23-4775-B4F1-7A0A001105C7@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20181113030938.dqg4f3xtq44tgy5q@19a6.tech> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 08:21:52PM -0600, Ioannis Nompelis wrote: > Welcome. I sail a Laser when I am not lazy. I used to race optimist as a kid and 420s as a teenager. Yes, welcome! My girlfriend and I bought an inflatable kayak this spring. We had a lot of fun paddling around the lakes. From 42dch42 at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 07:36:03 2018 From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 01:36:03 -0600 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20181112225756.zb3t5ugsvqbb5pca@19a6.tech> References: <5be8d4a2.1c69fb81.600c0.8046@mx.google.com> <20181112225756.zb3t5ugsvqbb5pca@19a6.tech> Message-ID: <5bea7ee4.1c69fb81.29b61.bf1c@mx.google.com> Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:57:56 -0600 Dave opined: > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:17:20PM -0600, harv wrote: > > Hello all, > > Corresponded with Iznogood on tclug mailing list and he was kind enough > > to point me towards this list. > > > > Name: Harvey Dawes > > Work: Industrial sheet metal and hvac fabricator/installer > > Hobby: Poking and prodding under hood of operating systems mainly but > > really anything computer related that catches my interest. > > Meaning I am strictly an amateur. > > History: Running various linux and *BSD flavors since 2003 > > Current: Using FreeBSD 11.2 with TrueOS (FreeBSD derivative) and > > TinyCore linux installed for when I break things beyond > > the point of being able to boot. > > > > Don't know how much if any I'll be able to contribute but just scanning > > list archives has already been educational for me. > > > > thanks, > > harv > > Hello and welcome! You can learn a little more about the group at > http://frostbyte.cc. Do you have any projects that you are working on > right now? Mainly getting FreeBSD to behave the way I want. Biggest issue is blank ttys after starting X. The one X is on works fine but the rest are blank and thus unusable. Also giving feedback on TrueOS release candidates- haven't got past 2nd page of installer yet. And finally, polishing up a shell script and adding some bells and whistles to it after which I'll try doing the same thing in python so I can put a gui on it- gives me incentive to learn python something I've been going to do for quite some time. From nompelis at nobelware.com Tue Nov 13 15:36:17 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 15:36:17 +0000 Subject: BSDers look here Message-ID: <20181113153617.GA3434@nobelware.com> I found this: https://twitter.com/romanzolotarev/status/1057130041165955074 on this: https://twitter.com/OpenBSDAms (I follow Roman.) From joe at begriffs.com Sat Nov 17 01:13:04 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:13:04 -0600 Subject: C study buddy? Message-ID: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> Hey all, I'm learning C programming comprehensively in several stages. The first stage was just the language itself and portability concerns. I've finished most of the exercises in K&R, and also read two books about portability. As a result of that, I wrote this article about various surprising architectures and their C compilers: https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-11-15-c-portability.html The next stage is learning the ANSI standard library. I bought and intend to read "The Standard C Library" by P. J. Plauger. He was part of the design committee and discusses the motivation and choices behind the library. The book walks you through actually writing the standard library from scratch, and demonstrates subtle parts of the code. It also demonstrates doing precision math. Would anyone like to pair program this with me on the frostbyte server? From samuel.stuewe at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 01:39:17 2018 From: samuel.stuewe at gmail.com (Sam Stuewe) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:17 -0600 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> Message-ID: On 11/16/18, Joe Nelson wrote: > Hey all, I'm learning C programming comprehensively in several > stages. The first stage was just the language itself and portability > concerns. I've finished most of the exercises in K&R, and also read > two books about portability. As a result of that, I wrote this > article about various surprising architectures and their C compilers: > https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-11-15-c-portability.html I saw the post; lovely to stroll down memory lane! Well put together. :) > The next stage is learning the ANSI standard library. I bought and > intend to read "The Standard C Library" by P. J. Plauger. He was part > of the design committee and discusses the motivation and choices behind > the library. The book walks you through actually writing the standard > library from scratch, and demonstrates subtle parts of the code. It also > demonstrates doing precision math. Sounds like a great next step! > Would anyone like to pair program this with me on the frostbyte server? Walking through exercises in the book, or on a specific project? I'm open to talking about projects/exercises and possible solutions anytime! All the best, -Sam From joe at begriffs.com Sat Nov 17 04:35:55 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 22:35:55 -0600 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> > > I wrote this article about various surprising architectures and > > their C compilers > I saw the post; lovely to stroll down memory lane! Well put together. :) Thanks! It was built out of those notes I showed you at parkway pizza. > > Would anyone like to pair program this with me on the frostbyte > > server? > Walking through exercises in the book, or on a specific project? I'm > open to talking about projects/exercises and possible solutions > anytime! Working through the book. Each chapter covers a different header. The chapters are all broken down into a similar pattern: Background The history behind the header, and the practices which were prevailing before it got standardized. What the C Standard Says A relevant excerpt Using Implementing Testing References Books and further discussion Exercises My idea was to do the exercises obviously but maybe to try doing the implementation ourselves as well, knowing just the background and what the standard says. Then compare our implementation to the one listed in the book. That would probably help us better appreciate theirs. From nompelis at nobelware.com Sat Nov 17 16:58:24 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:58:24 +0000 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181117165824.GA26986@nobelware.com> Wow, Joe! This is really doing it for the art of the craft here. I will go read your weblog post and comment on that next. But first some thoughts in response to your effort. I am the most proficient in C than in any other language I know, with C++ and Fortran coming second. I never thought of C as a language in which I would dig deep like you are doing. I thought it was a language that met all my own expectations and objectives; it has high level functions through the stdlib, it has libraries that all have its bindings, it is low level enough and high level enough, it has incredibly popular and all-encompassing constructs, it is popular, it is portable... Unix is based on it. It is fantastic. I am now proficient enough in it to be working on large software projects that are exclusively based on it, I am focusing on software architecture and the language comes naturally. Which brings me to the point about libraries. The standard library I need to get to know a little better, because there are many things that may be extremely beneficial to just use instead of having to invent and program, but those tend to be few in my line of work. If anyone wants to work on other libraries, like POSIX items (threads, etc), sockets, multi-threading with OpenMP and the like, etc, let me know. I write everything in C. I can share code, and I will offer some examples. IN From nompelis at nobelware.com Sat Nov 17 22:27:35 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:27:35 +0000 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181117165824.GA26986@nobelware.com> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> <20181117165824.GA26986@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20181117222735.GA6614@nobelware.com> I finally got the 10 minutes to read, and actually mostly understand, what was in Joe's weblog post. It has some of the geekiest things I have ever read, and is written in an esoteric enough language --assuming a lot of what the reader should know to read it-- that I find myself privileged to understand it! Take this in good spirit Joe! This is great! I will voice this: I never thought, ever in life, of treating pointers without type-casting, or treating anything in C without type-casting. If you want to be that lazy, use "unions" maybe, and suffer the consequences, maybe? It was a good read. When I was a kid, I cared less about what was inside that 8-bit processor, and went straight for "Basic" commands. Those were the days. One more thing on using libraries, just as a tangent. I am building this... thing... let's not worry about what it does. It has the header file shown below. Look at the included header files to get an idea of what libraries it is using. Maybe I am jumping a little far ahead from Joe's learning target, so feel free to ignore me. However... If you want to learn POSIX threads, unix and INET sockets, the select() magic, dynamic library loading, multi-threaded inter-process synchronization and communication, and signal-handling, you may want to look at the single .c file that goes with this. Have a good weekend everyone. #ifndef _INDAEMON_H #define _INDAEMON_H #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include //#include // used in the .c file //#include // used in the .c file #define NAME_SIZE 256 #define COMM_BUF_SIZE 256 struct indaemon_worker_s { int istat; }; struct indaemon_client_s { int istat; pthread_t t; pthread_attr_t t_attr; int isocket; }; struct indaemon_data_s { int istat; int irun; char name[NAME_SIZE]; // functions to execute void *lib_handle; int (*indaemon_User_Init)( void * arg ); int (*indaemon_User_Term)( void * arg ); // data for network operations int unix_socket; struct sockaddr_un unix_socket_name; char unix_socket_string[NAME_SIZE]; int inet_socket, inet_backlog; struct sockaddr_in inet_socket_name; in_port_t inet_port; char inet_socket_string[NAME_SIZE]; // data to communicate between network thread and main thread int imanage_pipefd[2],icontrol_pipefd[2]; // data for the networker pthread_t nett; pthread_attr_t nett_attr; int inetworker_run; // functions to execute in the networker int (*indaemon_Networker_Ending)( void * arg ); // worker threads data int num_workers; struct indaemon_worker_s *workers; // client threads data int num_clients; struct indaemon_client_s *clients; }; static struct indaemon_data_s *global_ddata = NULL; int indaemon_Start( const char name[], const char libname[] ); int indaemon_Init( struct indaemon_data_s **ddata, const char name[], const char libname[] ); int indaemon_Term( struct indaemon_data_s **ddata ); int indaemon_MainLoop( struct indaemon_data_s *ddata ); void indaemon_SignalHandler( int isignal ); int indaemon_LoadLibrary( struct indaemon_data_s *ddata, const char libname[] ); void *indaemon_Thread_Networker( void * ); void *indaemon_Thread_Client( void * ); int indaemon_Thread_Networker_Ending( void *arg ); int indaemon_Thread_HandleClient( struct indaemon_data_s *s, char buffer[], int socket_fd ); int indaemon_Thread_AttachClient( struct indaemon_data_s *s, int socket_fd ); int indaemon_Thread_DetachClient( struct indaemon_data_s *s, int socket_fd ); int indaemon_Thread_SpawnClient( struct indaemon_data_s *s, int new_socket ); int indaemon_Worker_Init( struct indaemon_worker_s *w ); int indaemon_Client_Init( struct indaemon_client_s *c ); #endif From hello at robertdherb.com Sat Nov 17 23:04:11 2018 From: hello at robertdherb.com (Robbie Herb) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:04:11 -0600 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181117170057.66e05faa@simon.vault-423.qualityretro.net> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 22:35:55 -0600 Joe Nelson wrote: > My idea was to do the exercises obviously but maybe to try doing the > implementation ourselves as well, knowing just the background and what > the standard says. Then compare our implementation to the one listed > in the book. That would probably help us better appreciate theirs. Oh my, this is one of the most interesting ideas I've ever heard. I'm not much of a programmer, and my kids will probably keep me too busy to really be a huge part of this, but I definitely want to see where it goes. From joe at begriffs.com Sun Nov 18 18:34:09 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 12:34:09 -0600 Subject: Comparing oh to other Unix shells In-Reply-To: <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> References: <20181029171153.GB21577@vm2.eradman.com> <20181030002934.GA31915@begriffs.com> <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> > I have communicated with the OpenGroup on a couple of topics and they > were prompt in getting back to me. Hmm, they're not getting back to me. I emailed OGPubs at opengroup.org, waited about two weeks, and sent a follow-up email but nothing. I did find a PDF online containing IEEE Std 1003.1-2008 (all four volumes in one file). Given the material, a 2008 version is probably just fine. Do you know how to turn such a PDF into four physical volumes at the university print shop, with a cover and a title on the spine? From nompelis at nobelware.com Mon Nov 19 01:33:01 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 01:33:01 +0000 Subject: Comparing oh to other Unix shells In-Reply-To: <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> References: <20181029171153.GB21577@vm2.eradman.com> <20181030002934.GA31915@begriffs.com> <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181119013301.GA17604@nobelware.com> > > > I have communicated with the OpenGroup on a couple of topics and they > > were prompt in getting back to me. > > Hmm, they're not getting back to me. I emailed OGPubs at opengroup.org, > waited about two weeks, and sent a follow-up email but nothing. > Will look back in my old emails and will get you an email address to a real person. > I did find a PDF online containing IEEE Std 1003.1-2008 (all > four volumes in one file). Given the material, a 2008 version is > probably just fine. Do you know how to turn such a PDF into four > physical volumes at the university print shop, with a cover and > a title on the spine? I will inquire. I had done this for my thesis, exactly like that. What may be a problem is if they ask me if the material is copyrighted, and turn me away. This is possible, but we will find out. From nompelis at nobelware.com Mon Nov 19 14:12:37 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:12:37 +0000 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181119141237.GA13291@nobelware.com> Happy Monday guys. This one's for Joe and for his C exploration: https://twitter.com/unix_byte/status/1064418505179549696 From joe at begriffs.com Mon Nov 19 23:58:25 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:58:25 -0600 Subject: Comparing oh to other Unix shells In-Reply-To: <20181119013301.GA17604@nobelware.com> References: <20181029171153.GB21577@vm2.eradman.com> <20181030002934.GA31915@begriffs.com> <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> <20181119013301.GA17604@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20181119235825.GA73123@begriffs.com> > Will look back in my old emails and will get you an email address to a > real person. Thanks! > I will inquire. I had done this for my thesis, exactly like that. What > may be a problem is if they ask me if the material is copyrighted, and > turn me away. This is possible, but we will find out. Yeah good point. Forget it actually, I don't want to print a pirate copy. If the Open Group gets back to me then I can buy it from them, or maybe I can find a used copy for sale. Otherwise they do offer an HTML version for free download and I can legally use that. From nompelis at nobelware.com Tue Nov 20 00:16:34 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 00:16:34 +0000 Subject: Comparing oh to other Unix shells In-Reply-To: <20181119235825.GA73123@begriffs.com> References: <20181029171153.GB21577@vm2.eradman.com> <20181030002934.GA31915@begriffs.com> <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> <20181119013301.GA17604@nobelware.com> <20181119235825.GA73123@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181120001634.GA2895@nobelware.com> I looked up the copyrights and it is IEEE _and_ the Open Group. Cna you go search in the IEEE-type online shops? I did not really look, but this was a quick link: https://www.techstreet.com/ieee/pages/home Will cost much less than 4 bound, custom books here. The same page says that "UNIX is a registered trademark of the Open Group" which is something I did not knnw! http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ From joe at begriffs.com Tue Nov 20 01:14:22 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 19:14:22 -0600 Subject: Comparing oh to other Unix shells In-Reply-To: <20181120001634.GA2895@nobelware.com> References: <20181029171153.GB21577@vm2.eradman.com> <20181030002934.GA31915@begriffs.com> <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> <20181119013301.GA17604@nobelware.com> <20181119235825.GA73123@begriffs.com> <20181120001634.GA2895@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20181120011422.GA81032@begriffs.com> > I looked up the copyrights and it is IEEE _and_ the Open Group. Cna you go > search in the IEEE-type online shops? https://www.techstreet.com/ieee/standards/ieee-1003-1-2016-edition?product_id=1929761 $1070.00 for the print copy -- yeah I don't think so! From dave.bucklin at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 02:46:02 2018 From: dave.bucklin at gmail.com (Dave Bucklin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 20:46:02 -0600 Subject: Comparing oh to other Unix shells In-Reply-To: <20181120011422.GA81032@begriffs.com> References: <20181029171153.GB21577@vm2.eradman.com> <20181030002934.GA31915@begriffs.com> <20181030152111.GA30381@nobelware.com> <20181118183409.GE23246@begriffs.com> <20181119013301.GA17604@nobelware.com> <20181119235825.GA73123@begriffs.com> <20181120001634.GA2895@nobelware.com> <20181120011422.GA81032@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181120024602.bzuxywqywwqprbro@19a6.tech> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:14:22PM -0600, Joe Nelson wrote: > > I looked up the copyrights and it is IEEE _and_ the Open Group. Cna you go > > search in the IEEE-type online shops? > > https://www.techstreet.com/ieee/standards/ieee-1003-1-2016-edition?product_id=1929761 > $1070.00 for the print copy -- yeah I don't think so! They have a black friday deal: 5 for $5350.00. From chris at sencjw.com Tue Nov 20 04:46:10 2018 From: chris at sencjw.com (Chris Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:46:10 -0600 Subject: New tech blog Message-ID: <20181120044610.GA30065@tha-tha.local> I've started a new tech blog/dumping ground for mostly tech and ham radio things. If that's the sort of thing that you'd be interested in, check it out: https://kd9kjv.com From joe at begriffs.com Tue Nov 20 05:56:26 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:56:26 -0600 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181117170057.66e05faa@simon.vault-423.qualityretro.net> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> <20181117170057.66e05faa@simon.vault-423.qualityretro.net> Message-ID: <20181120055626.GA85530@begriffs.com> Robbie Herb wrote: > Oh my, this is one of the most interesting ideas I've ever heard. ... > I definitely want to see where it goes. Here's what I've learned so far: * The idea of "benign" macro redefinition and un-definition. * is designed to work when included multiple times in a single file. Doing so with our without NDEBUG defined changes the behavior of the assert() macro. * My first thought of using an if statement in the macro is no good because it needs to evaluate to a void expression so that it asserts can be made anywhere in the code. * Macros in standard library header files are not allowed to call functions from other headers. The headers themselves may not include each other. * There's a trick to adding the line number in a string built entirely within the macro. https://github.com/begriffs/libc/blob/master/assert.h#L12-L14 * makes macro overrides of its functions. This way the programmer can get the speed of a macro but have access to a function if needed for function pointers. * If foo is a function and covered up with a macro of the same name, you can still get at the function by enclosing it in parens (foo)(x). * ctype's implementation must make non-portable assumptions in its lookup tables for a particular platform, but the #error directive allows you to break the compilation if expectations are violated. https://github.com/begriffs/libc/blob/master/ctype.c#L6-L8 * Cool trick of offsetting the lookup table pointer by one on an underlying array so that -1 (EOF) can be looked up too. https://github.com/begriffs/libc/blob/master/ctype.c#L79 * Looping over a raw string literal is fine, it just gets stored in the data segment of the program. Pretty convenient. https://github.com/begriffs/libc/blob/master/tctype.c#L32 I would love someone to work on this with me. The exercises would be more fun that way. It's a pretty great book, I think even you C pros like Sam and Ioannis might get something out of it. Also, anyone know how to improve the Makefile while still keeping within the fully portable subset of make commands? It seems redundant in places. https://github.com/begriffs/libc/blob/master/Makefile Also the libc.a file will get rebuilt if any object file changes (which is good), which will cause *all* the test binaries to become out of date (which may be bad). My BSD make doesn't support the "library.a(object.o)" construction with the parens to indicate a target's reliance on just one part of a library archive. From joe at begriffs.com Tue Nov 20 06:07:31 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 00:07:31 -0600 Subject: New tech blog In-Reply-To: <20181120044610.GA30065@tha-tha.local> References: <20181120044610.GA30065@tha-tha.local> Message-ID: <20181120060731.GB85530@begriffs.com> > https://kd9kjv.com That's superb writing and funny! Added it to my RSS reader and looking forward to the next article. Also hats off for learning Morse. I hit up https://lcwo.net for a while and it frustrated the everloving hell out of me. :) PS. Mutt chose a Message-Id ending in tha-tha.local for your message. If you `set hostname = "sencjw.com"` in muttrc then it'll use that domain rather than your computer name. From nompelis at nobelware.com Tue Nov 20 16:58:47 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:58:47 +0000 Subject: New tech blog In-Reply-To: <20181120044610.GA30065@tha-tha.local> References: <20181120044610.GA30065@tha-tha.local> Message-ID: <20181120165847.GA8609@nobelware.com> > > https://kd9kjv.com > "Found a new thingy out in space? You can bet your bitcoins it?s still being a lawful thermodynamic citizen." Absolutely poetic! I like point 5 of hte summary. Sounds like several of us here sort of live that part in real life. I will hack together a page with all of the links to personal blogs, feeds and webpages, with the intention to put that page on frostbyte.cc, primarily as a "go to" or "index" page for us. From nompelis at nobelware.com Tue Nov 20 17:14:04 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 17:14:04 +0000 Subject: C study buddy? In-Reply-To: <20181120055626.GA85530@begriffs.com> References: <20181117011304.GA47584@begriffs.com> <20181117043555.GA52891@begriffs.com> <20181117170057.66e05faa@simon.vault-423.qualityretro.net> <20181120055626.GA85530@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181120171404.GB8609@nobelware.com> > * There's a trick to adding the line number in a string built entirely > within the macro. > https://github.com/begriffs/libc/blob/master/assert.h#L12-L14 Way cool. Seen this before. Never used it. > * makes macro overrides of its functions. This way the > programmer can get the speed of a macro but have access to a function > if needed for function pointers. > * If foo is a function and covered up with a macro of the same name, > you can still get at the function by enclosing it in parens (foo)(x). Did not know! I wish I had the time to dig in there with you, Joe. From chris at sencjw.com Fri Nov 23 22:48:10 2018 From: chris at sencjw.com (Chris Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:48:10 -0600 Subject: New tech blog In-Reply-To: <20181120060731.GB85530@begriffs.com> References: <20181120044610.GA30065@tha-tha.local> <20181120060731.GB85530@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181123224810.GA65361@sencjw.com> Whoops, sorry Joe... I forgot to reply to the list ;) On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:07:31AM -0600, Joe Nelson wrote: > > https://kd9kjv.com > > That's superb writing and funny! Added it to my RSS reader and looking > forward to the next article. D'aww thanks! I'll try to keep the good stuff coming. I'm glad to be able to write about tech stuff that's completely unrelated to anything at work. > Also hats off for learning Morse. I hit up https://lcwo.net for a while > and it frustrated the everloving hell out of me. :) I have an iPhone app that seems to be working okay for me. It's *just* gamified enough it seems. For me, there's also the meta-learning of successfully doing daily habits; something that I'm always trying to get better at. That being said, I've just crossed 90% for "K" & "M" so the Koch method says I can now add another letter, "R". So it is early days and I'll see if I wash out later on (hoping not). > PS. Mutt chose a Message-Id ending in tha-tha.local for your message. > If you `set hostname = "sencjw.com"` in muttrc then it'll use that > domain rather than your computer name. Thanks for the tip. I'll set it. -- Chris From louis at goessling.com Fri Nov 23 23:03:51 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:03:51 -0600 Subject: Howdy Message-ID: Hello folks, I came across TC Hardcore Hackers on Ioannis' GitHub profile, who I've met briefly offline. I thought I'd join the mailing list and say hi! Name: Louis Goessling "Work": Student at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities, Systems Admin for the ACM Student Chapter at UMTC. Interests: Systems software & languages. I have a toy C-like programming language "Orth" that I've used to build some projects in this realm: self-hosting compiler (uses LLVM as a backend) and a very primitive x86 OS. Analog interests: Metalworking, Sailing, [Ultimate] Frisbee. Systems: I run Debian on my laptop, and on my servers. One of these is my home router and one is racked at ACM. Theres a collection of servers I administrate at ACM that run Debian and Arch. We use a linux box as the bridge/router network uplink at ACM, too. I occasionally attend the PyMNToS (Python UG) meetup, and went to the most recent Rust meetup (sadly not called a RUG) although I don't know much rust... I'm new to the mailing list scene but this sounds like an interesting group! You can pull my gpg key with this email or find it at https://louis.goessling.com/key.asc Louis Goessling From chris at sencjw.com Fri Nov 23 23:22:57 2018 From: chris at sencjw.com (Chris Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:22:57 -0600 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 05:03:51PM -0600, Louis wrote: > [...] > Analog interests: Metalworking, Sailing, [Ultimate] Frisbee. Oh cool, I'm a sailor myself. What sort of boat do you use? -- Chris From louis at goessling.com Fri Nov 23 23:34:02 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:34:02 -0600 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> References: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 5:23 PM Chris Wilson wrote: > Oh cool, I'm a sailor myself. What sort of boat do you use? I used to do a lot more sailing a couple years ago - Sunfish and C Scows mostly. I've done some messing around in Lasers and an Opti too. It's a lot harder to find time (and a boat...) these days though :( - Louis From chris at sencjw.com Sat Nov 24 00:23:25 2018 From: chris at sencjw.com (Chris Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 18:23:25 -0600 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: References: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> Message-ID: <20181124002325.GC65602@sencjw.com> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 05:34:02PM -0600, Louis wrote: > It's a lot harder to find time (and a boat...) these days though :( That's so true! Especially with the long winters around here (I'm in Wisconsin). Anyway, welcome! -- Chris From nompelis at nobelware.com Sat Nov 24 16:39:21 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 16:39:21 +0000 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20181124002325.GC65602@sencjw.com> References: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> <20181124002325.GC65602@sencjw.com> Message-ID: <20181124163921.GA23781@nobelware.com> Welcome Louis! I knew you would find your way to the Hardcore Hackers, and that is why I did not just mention it to you. I have met Louis on a couple of occasions, and I play/host trivia with Louis' dad. We have high expectations of Louis... (no pressure dude). I will expose the details; he just finished high-school and had been taking UofM college credit courses while in high-school. He is the only high-schooler to whom I had recommended a book by Niklaus Wirth (the very classic one "Algo & Data..."). I was impressed to hear of him making a language/compiler and an OS. I am sure we all have lots to learn from Louis' fresh eyes on things and his enthusiasm. Louis, pick a username (login) for our VPS so that Dave or Joe can get you an account. It is BSD, so you will learn a bit of that too (a good thing). This list is archived online on frostbyte.cc, all of what we talk about here. We also are running an IRC server and a Murmur voice-chat server, for the yet-to-come occasion that we will do paired- or group-programming. Our members write weblogs, which are fun to read. We each have projects that we share and discuss, and some of us go to great lengths both in understanding and execution, but also in articulating opinions; the archives can attest to that! I am sure you and Sam will find CS and programmatic topics to discuss. IN From joe at begriffs.com Sat Nov 24 16:42:38 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 10:42:38 -0600 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> > I came across TC Hardcore Hackers on Ioannis' GitHub profile, who I've met > briefly offline. I thought I'd join the mailing list and say hi! Hi Louis, welcome! Really glad you found the list. Your webpage has many interesting projects on it. > Interests: Systems software & languages. Nice. Trying to get more into this myself. Currently halfway through P.J. Plauger's book about the C standard library. After that I'll be trying the examples in Stevens' "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment." If you're interested we could try working on these examples together on the frostbyte.cc server. You're probably busy with school, but just throwing it out there. > Analog interests: Metalworking, Sailing, [Ultimate] Frisbee. Have you visited the new metal shop at TC Maker? http://www.tcmaker.org They've got all kinds of tools in there, and run classes about how to use them. > Systems: I run Debian on my laptop, and on my servers. One of these is my home > router and one is racked at ACM. Theres a collection of servers I administrate > at ACM that run Debian and Arch. We use a linux box as the bridge/router > network uplink at ACM, too. I want to set up a proper network at home (rather than using whatever weak wireless router the ISP gave me). What would you advise? Here's the tentative plan so far: * Get an EdgeRouter 4 to act as a switch and router https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter-4/ * Use a dedicated wireless access point https://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap-ac-pro/ * Someone online said that they add pfSense as the WAN entry point, doing the NAT, content filtering and firewalling. [WAN] --> Modem --> pfSense --> ER X --> [LAN] I was considering running pfSense on an APU.2C4 http://www.mini-box.com/ALIX-APU-2C4-AMD-G-Series-GX-412TC * I'd like to put a rack in the basement to hold this stuff. Are there local places to get a rack for cheap? * What's a good rackable NAS? Synology? Maybe all this is way more expensive than it needs to be though, and I could be using more off-the-shelf components. Also I want to keep this setup quiet, and not have a stack of jet engines in the basement. :) From salo at saloits.com Sat Nov 24 17:50:40 2018 From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:50:40 -0600 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20181124163921.GA23781@nobelware.com> References: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> <20181124002325.GC65602@sencjw.com> <20181124163921.GA23781@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <11823783-a393-cfc2-3ced-5b4339702ca6@saloits.com> On 11/24/2018 10:39 AM, Ioannis Nompelis wrote: > ... he just finished high-school and had been taking UofM college credit > courses while in high-school. He sounds like, but probably isn't, the PSEO student I ran into at the campus Starbucks who is taking math and computer sciences courses. So, perhaps there is at least one more PSEO student who might be interested. -tjs From louis at goessling.com Sat Nov 24 18:44:34 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 12:44:34 -0600 Subject: Howdy In-Reply-To: <11823783-a393-cfc2-3ced-5b4339702ca6@saloits.com> References: <20181123232257.GB65602@sencjw.com> <20181124002325.GC65602@sencjw.com> <20181124163921.GA23781@nobelware.com> <11823783-a393-cfc2-3ced-5b4339702ca6@saloits.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 11:50 AM Timothy J. Salo wrote: > He sounds like, but probably isn't, the PSEO student I ran into at the > campus Starbucks who is taking math and computer sciences courses. So, > perhaps there is at least one more PSEO student who might be interested. I don't think I've ever been to the campus starbucks so I doubt it was me - there are dozens of us! Dozens! From louis at goessling.com Sat Nov 24 19:01:22 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:01:22 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Howdy In-Reply-To: References: <20181124023816.qx6qiy5n6iz5pj77@19a6.tech> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 8:31 PM Dave Bucklin wrote: > Louis, if you would like, I can set you up with an account at > frostbyte.cc using your gpg key. All I need is your desired username. I'd be happy to have an account, though I don't know how much I'll use it. It'll be interesting to poke around on a BSD box. The only experience I've had with BSD was the rather unpleasant experience of trying to keep alive the previous ACM router (set up by someone who graduated years before I arrived) alive until it was replaced. Is this server a real box somewhere or in the cloud? I haven't set up a gpg auth subkey though, so I'd prefer if you added my SSH key (at https://louis.members.acm.umn.edu/~louis/id_rsa.pub .) (Committed the cardinal sin and didn't cc the list the first time I sent this.) From louis at goessling.com Sat Nov 24 19:44:13 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:44:13 -0600 Subject: Systems, Networking &c In-Reply-To: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> References: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 10:42 AM Joe Nelson wrote: > Nice. Trying to get more into this myself. Currently halfway through > P.J. Plauger's book about the C standard library. After that I'll > be trying the examples in Stevens' "Advanced Programming in the UNIX I just finished implementing malloc for one of the classes I've taken (CSCI 2021 - Machine Architecture and Organization.) It was a very interesting learning experience, and ended up being way harder than I expected to get something that is {correct, fast, efficient}. > Environment." If you're interested we could try working on these > examples together on the frostbyte.cc server. You're probably busy with > school, but just throwing it out there. That might be interesting, though I am pretty busy these days as we approach finals. > Have you visited the new metal shop at TC Maker? http://www.tcmaker.org > They've got all kinds of tools in there, and run classes about how to > use them. I don't think I've ever been to the Hack Factory - thanks for linking that. I've been meaning to learn how to weld for a while. Most of my experimenting with metal has been casting small things in a DIY aluminum foundry. > * Get an EdgeRouter 4 to act as a switch and router > https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter-4/ I've seen those before, and they look pretty nice. That being said, I've never worked with one so I don't know the low down. Both of the routers I administrate are just regular linux boxes that run shorewall < http://shorewall.org/ > (which I think is a lot like pfSense, but linux based instead of BSD and a package instead of a distro) and dnsmasq (which is a DHCP server and DNS relay.) I've had a pretty good experience working with that, although the flexibility of shorewall means configuring it the first time can be something of a nightmare. > * Use a dedicated wireless access point > https://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap-ac-pro/ I'm a total cheapskate, so my home network APs are just my old routers in AP mode... Those look real nice though! > * Someone online said that they add pfSense as the WAN entry point, > doing the NAT, content filtering and firewalling. > [WAN] --> Modem --> pfSense --> ER X --> [LAN] That seems... odd to me - aren't pfSense boxes and an EdgeRouter both intended to be used as the router/gateway in a network like that? Seems likely to me that you could use just one of those and skip the other box (+ complexity of double-NAT or using pfSense as a bridge.) > * I'd like to put a rack in the basement to hold this stuff. Are there > local places to get a rack for cheap? I'd look on craigslist, which is where I've bought most of my hardware. There's a bunch of listings for old server racks and stuff on there, e.g. < https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/sop/d/amco-server-rack/6744117725.html >. Watch out though, because a lot of people will list A/V racks that are not deep enough for regular servers on there. I'm sure you could find smaller ones too, although they are usually more expensive (since they aren't such a pain to move :P). > * What's a good rackable NAS? Synology? I've heard good things about those too, but never used one. My fileserver is a PowerEdge 2950 with a bunch of SAS drives I found on (suprise!) craigslist. Lots of good options on there, although I wouldn't put used drives in anything less reliable than RAID 1. > Maybe all this is way more expensive than it needs to be though, and I > could be using more off-the-shelf components. Also I want to keep this > setup quiet, and not have a stack of jet engines in the basement. :) While my craigslist-sourced rackmount gear was cheap, it certainly is loud! The other advantage of something like an EdgeRouter is it will probably be orders of magnitude better on the power consumption front. From nompelis at nobelware.com Sat Nov 24 20:15:01 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 20:15:01 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Howdy In-Reply-To: References: <20181124023816.qx6qiy5n6iz5pj77@19a6.tech> Message-ID: <20181124201501.GA32357@nobelware.com> It is a virtual Private Server (VPS), so not "bare metal" by definition. You do not have to do much there, but it is good to have access for when we do stuff, or when we share stuff. SSH (public) key is all that is needed. But also provide a username. And there seem to be dozens of Starbucks on campus as well nowadays! From louis at goessling.com Sat Nov 24 20:18:13 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 14:18:13 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20181124201501.GA32357@nobelware.com> References: <20181124023816.qx6qiy5n6iz5pj77@19a6.tech> <20181124201501.GA32357@nobelware.com> Message-ID: Whoops, forgot a username. I'll take `louis` if I can get it. I linked my SSH pubkey above, here it is again: https://louis.members.acm.umn.edu/~louis/id_rsa.pub From nompelis at nobelware.com Sat Nov 24 20:24:21 2018 From: nompelis at nobelware.com (Ioannis Nompelis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 20:24:21 +0000 Subject: Systems, Networking &c In-Reply-To: References: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181124202421.GB32357@nobelware.com> Louis, please point us to your malloc()/free()/calloc()/realloc() implementation. I'd like to take a look, if you do not mind. As for home networking and hardware, I'd ping my friend Randy, who has had lots of experience in setting up a variety of hardware for this purpose. He stands by the Ubiquiti EdgeRouter, and he says it is very much what an "enthusiast" like you guys would want. He had a detailed post o TC-LUG, so you can look in those archives from a couple of months ago. Randy also has racks that he may want to get rid of; he offered me a few pieces of hardware, which was both rack space and 1U,2U and 4U boxes, both with and without hardware. I also use RAID1 and no less for anything serious when it comes to storage. I take it a step further: RAID1, with LUKS encryption containers, with XFS for the filesystem. There are NAS storage devices that use ZFS, and if you are comfortable with that, you want that (ZFS is great). ZFS is standard in BSD, but a compileable module for Linux that is not part of the Linux kernel due to licensing/copyrights. From joe at begriffs.com Sat Nov 24 20:32:08 2018 From: joe at begriffs.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 14:32:08 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Howdy In-Reply-To: References: <20181124023816.qx6qiy5n6iz5pj77@19a6.tech> Message-ID: <20181124203208.GC37236@begriffs.com> > I haven't set up a gpg auth subkey though, so I'd prefer if you added > my SSH key (at https://louis.members.acm.umn.edu/~louis/id_rsa.pub .) OK, you should be set up. Username 602p. From louis at goessling.com Sat Nov 24 21:10:55 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:10:55 -0600 Subject: Systems, Networking &c In-Reply-To: <20181124202421.GB32357@nobelware.com> References: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> <20181124202421.GB32357@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 2:24 PM Ioannis Nompelis wrote: > Louis, please point us to your malloc()/free()/calloc()/realloc() implementation. > I'd like to take a look, if you do not mind. I've put a copy at https://louis.members.acm.umn.edu/~louis/mm.c . Two caveats: - It's not going to work out-of-the-box as a malloc() replacement, since it's meant to hook into the test suite for the class. I don't think I'm supposed to distribute that, but if you happened to find a copy at http://www-users.cselabs.umn.edu/classes/Fall-2018/csci2021-010/ha/4/ha4-handout.tar it would work fine. - calloc() isn't implemented, but it could be done in terms of the malloc() already implemented. An optimized version should probably use mmap() to get something mapped to a zero page that will be backed by real memory when written to, though. From louis at goessling.com Sat Nov 24 21:12:40 2018 From: louis at goessling.com (Louis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:12:40 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20181124203208.GC37236@begriffs.com> References: <20181124023816.qx6qiy5n6iz5pj77@19a6.tech> <20181124203208.GC37236@begriffs.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 2:32 PM Joe Nelson wrote: > OK, you should be set up. Username 602p. That works perfectly, thanks. Jarring to be on a system without bash! From hello at robertdherb.com Sat Nov 24 21:30:26 2018 From: hello at robertdherb.com (Robbie Herb) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:30:26 -0600 Subject: Howdy (Ubiquiti) In-Reply-To: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> References: <20181124164238.GB37236@begriffs.com> Message-ID: <20181124153026.7ca18e08@simon.vault-423.qualityretro.net> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 10:42:38 -0600 Joe Nelson wrote: > I want to set up a proper network at home (rather than using whatever > weak wireless router the ISP gave me). What would you advise? Here's > the tentative plan so far: > > * Get an EdgeRouter 4 to act as a switch and router > https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter-4/ > * Use a dedicated wireless access point > https://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap-ac-pro/ > * Someone online said that they add pfSense as the WAN entry point, > doing the NAT, content filtering and firewalling. > [WAN] --> Modem --> pfSense --> ER X --> [LAN] > I was considering running pfSense on an APU.2C4 > http://www.mini-box.com/ALIX-APU-2C4-AMD-G-Series-GX-412TC > * I'd like to put a rack in the basement to hold this stuff. Are there > local places to get a rack for cheap? > * What's a good rackable NAS? Synology? > > Maybe all this is way more expensive than it needs to be though, and I > could be using more off-the-shelf components. Also I want to keep this > setup quiet, and not have a stack of jet engines in the basement. :) I've had some experience with Ubiquiti gear and I have to say, it's pretty nice. Much better than the junk you can get at Best Buy. We actually run some at a temporary warehouse we set up and it works for that, and a friend of mine at the local ISP has installed Ubiquiti in a few of the local frat houses. They like it a lot for the price. I was planning on next year getting some gear for my house, since I'm about fed up with the cheap D-link I have (Though you really can't beat the price!) Let me know if you have questions. It's been a while since I set it up but I'm sure I can dust off the cobwebs. From salo at saloits.com Sat Nov 24 23:57:11 2018 From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 17:57:11 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20181124201501.GA32357@nobelware.com> References: <20181124023816.qx6qiy5n6iz5pj77@19a6.tech> <20181124201501.GA32357@nobelware.com> Message-ID: > And there seem to be dozens of Starbucks on campus as well nowadays! As far as I know, only is regularly open until 11:00 p.m. -tjs From hello at roberthderb.com Wed Nov 14 03:26:07 2018 From: hello at roberthderb.com (Robbie D Herb) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:26:07 -0000 Subject: Another Introduction Message-ID: Hi Friends, Since Harv started the trend, I suppose I'll join in on the introductions. I'm Robbie, and I actually don't remember how I came across Joe, probably a comment on Hacker News. I'm a systems administrator in eastern South Dakota, and I use OpenBSD for most of my PCs at home. I also like animation and am currently working on a short animated film that I hope to turn into a series (Oh, not professionally or anything, just for fun). I've been subscribed to the list for a while, and this is only my second or third message. I'm sort of a lurker that way, but I've definitely been interested in reading. Thanks for the interesting reading, and happy hacking! Best, rdh From hello at roberthderb.com Thu Nov 22 04:33:22 2018 From: hello at roberthderb.com (Robbie D Herb) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 04:33:22 -0000 Subject: Games on FreeBSD Message-ID: <91dd0410-90f9-22d9-3187-dc7a309de1eb@roberthderb.com> Hey friends, by now you've all probably seen this post by now, but just in case someone hasn't, it's a pretty interesting read: https://oshogbo.vexillium.org/blog/58/ Happy Thanksgiving! (Or happy Thursday if you're non-US)